WEBVTT NOTE Free Speech and Dissent During Wartime 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:08.000 The talk is on the dissent during wartime and the subtitle is How I Came to Admire the Black Sheep of the Family. 2 00:00:08.000 --> 00:00:24.000 You see this on the third page of the handout is from a newspaper front page of the Birmingham News on July 28, 1918. 3 00:00:24.000 --> 00:00:32.000 And the person on trial is William Denson, and I guess he was my second cousin, 4 00:00:32.000 --> 00:00:40.000 our first cousin, once removed. I don't know how that all goes, but he is on trial for violation of the Espionage Act in federal court. 5 00:00:40.000 --> 00:00:46.000 And he's defended by four former justices of the Alabama Supreme Court. 6 00:00:46.000 --> 00:00:55.120 The main attorney was my grandfather, who is seated right here and also right there. 7 00:00:55.120 --> 00:01:00.280 He was the chief counsel for the defense, and then the others, he was a former associate 8 00:01:00.280 --> 00:01:03.840 justice, all the others were former chief justices. 9 00:01:03.840 --> 00:01:09.680 This is William Benson here, the defendant, and this is also him back here. 10 00:01:09.680 --> 00:01:15.040 And his father-in-law, Judge Dowdell, is here, and then Judge Weekley and Judge Tyson. 11 00:01:15.040 --> 00:01:21.240 So it was sort of a dream team defense team that came to defend him. 12 00:01:21.240 --> 00:01:26.760 So I want to talk about that, but first on your handout I want to mention some of the 13 00:01:26.760 --> 00:01:33.760 books that are there and comment on them because these are books that I've read over the years 14 00:01:33.760 --> 00:01:39.080 and they all apply to dissent during wartime. 15 00:01:39.080 --> 00:01:49.440 If you're just going to read one book, I would recommend Perilous Times. This is a book that 16 00:01:49.440 --> 00:01:58.320 also you can get from laissez-faire. It goes from the very beginning during the formation 17 00:01:58.320 --> 00:02:04.200 of the country, the Alien and Sedition Acts, and goes all the way up to the present time. 18 00:02:04.200 --> 00:02:10.320 The author, Jeffrey Stone, was a former provost of the University of Chicago, he's a former 19 00:02:10.320 --> 00:02:16.600 dean of the Chicago Law School, but he also wrote one of the briefs in the Japanese internment 20 00:02:16.600 --> 00:02:19.040 cases, the Karamatsu case. 21 00:02:19.040 --> 00:02:24.120 And so he's taken a very active interest in dissent during wartime because the Japanese 22 00:02:24.120 --> 00:02:31.120 internment was not dissent, but it was wartime power exercised by Franklin Roosevelt to just 23 00:02:31.120 --> 00:02:36.520 issue an executive order to put all Japanese-Americans in concentration camps. 24 00:02:36.520 --> 00:02:41.180 And I knew that a child, he was a child at the time he was put in, became Chancellor 25 00:02:41.180 --> 00:02:46.360 of AUM, a branch part of Auburn University, and he remembers being in the concentration 26 00:02:46.360 --> 00:02:49.360 camp and how distraught his family was. 27 00:02:49.360 --> 00:02:54.600 They were loyal American citizens of Japanese descent and they were placed in the internment 28 00:02:54.600 --> 00:02:59.620 concentration camp for the whole period of the war and suffered greatly. 29 00:02:59.620 --> 00:03:07.540 Let me read a part of Jeffrey Stone's introduction to the situation and I think he covers it 30 00:03:07.540 --> 00:03:08.540 very well. 31 00:03:08.540 --> 00:03:12.980 It is often said that dissent in wartime is disloyal. 32 00:03:12.980 --> 00:03:16.980 The claim puzzles civil libertarians who see a clear distinction. 33 00:03:16.980 --> 00:03:21.180 In their view, dissent in wartime can be the highest form of patriotism. 34 00:03:21.180 --> 00:03:27.100 Whether, when or for how long and on what terms to fight the war are among the most 35 00:03:27.100 --> 00:03:31.100 are the most profound decisions a nation can encounter. 36 00:03:31.100 --> 00:03:37.100 A democratic society must debate these issues throughout the conflict. 37 00:03:37.100 --> 00:03:47.100 Dissent that questions the conduct and the morality of a war is, in this view, the very essence of responsible and courageous citizenship. 38 00:03:47.100 --> 00:03:54.100 At the same time, or you might say on the other hand, dissent can readily be cast as disloyal. 39 00:03:54.100 --> 00:04:07.100 A critic who argues that troops are poorly trained or that war is unjust must make a significant contribution to public discourse, but he also gives, quote, aid and comfort, end quote, to the enemy. 40 00:04:07.100 --> 00:04:15.100 The enemy is more likely to fight fiercely if it is confident and believes in the adversary divided and is uncertain. 41 00:04:15.100 --> 00:04:20.100 Public disagreement during a war can strengthen the enemy's resolve. 42 00:04:20.100 --> 00:04:26.260 Money generates a powerful mass psychology. Emotions run high. Spies, saboteurs and terrorists 43 00:04:26.260 --> 00:04:31.280 lurk around every corner. Our way of life is imperiled. Anything that increases the 44 00:04:31.280 --> 00:04:36.620 danger to our troops, our sons and daughters, is feared and despised. The thought that a 45 00:04:36.620 --> 00:04:43.620 loved one or friend has put his life and limb at risk for an unworthy cause is intolerable. 46 00:04:43.620 --> 00:04:50.620 We are just. Our enemy is cruel, immoral, inhuman. Loyalty is the order of the day. 47 00:04:51.260 --> 00:04:57.460 In such an atmosphere, the line between dissent and disloyalty is elusive and often ignored. 48 00:04:57.460 --> 00:05:03.380 As we shall see, the United States has a long and unfortunate history of overreacting to 49 00:05:03.380 --> 00:05:08.780 the perceived dangers of wartime. Time and again, Americans have allowed fear and fury 50 00:05:08.780 --> 00:05:10.540 to get the better of them. 51 00:05:10.540 --> 00:05:13.260 Time and again, Americans have suppressed dissent, 52 00:05:13.260 --> 00:05:15.700 imprisoned and deported dissenters, 53 00:05:15.700 --> 00:05:18.300 and then later regretted their actions. 54 00:05:18.300 --> 00:05:21.660 This book is first and foremost about why this happens 55 00:05:21.660 --> 00:05:25.660 and how we can break the pattern as we look to the future. 56 00:05:25.660 --> 00:05:30.600 So his sympathies are clearly in favor of allowing dissent 57 00:05:30.600 --> 00:05:33.080 and protecting that dissent with the Constitution. 58 00:05:33.080 --> 00:05:48.080 Another book I recommend to you is Limits of Dissent about Clement Van Landingham in the Civil War. 59 00:05:48.080 --> 00:05:57.080 And I might mention just before we get to that, the Alien and Sedition Acts that were passed by the Adams Administration during the Quasi-French War, 60 00:05:57.080 --> 00:06:14.080 are the things that caused the Alien and Sedition Act, and it was a very vicious act used by the Adams Administration against the Anti-Federalists and resulted in the famous Kentucky and Virginia resolutions by Madison and Jefferson for nullification. 61 00:06:14.080 --> 00:06:23.080 So the Alien and Sedition Act started from the very beginning of our country, so there's been a battle on this from the very beginning. 62 00:06:23.080 --> 00:06:31.280 During the war between the states, Clement Van Landingham was a congressman from Ohio, 63 00:06:31.280 --> 00:06:36.440 and in July of 1861, he made speech on the floor of Congress critical of Lincoln and 64 00:06:36.440 --> 00:06:41.240 the administration for the unconstitutional war that was going on. 65 00:06:41.240 --> 00:06:46.600 He was a real thorn in Lincoln's side, and they gerrymandered his district so that he 66 00:06:46.600 --> 00:06:52.280 was defeated, and he continued to make speeches during the war. 67 00:06:52.280 --> 00:07:04.280 He was from Ohio. He was a Democrat. He was not a Southern sympathizer. He simply felt that Lincoln was wrong in the war and he was opposed to it. 68 00:07:04.280 --> 00:07:14.280 So there was a military district in Ohio and they passed an ordinance making it illegal to make speeches against the administration. 69 00:07:14.280 --> 00:07:28.280 He continued to speak out and one night, at midnight, they broke into his home and officers arrested him, took him to a military camp and tried him in the military court and sent him to prison. 70 00:07:28.280 --> 00:07:36.280 And he was not allowed to have a habeas corpus writ or to have any constitutional protection. 71 00:07:36.280 --> 00:08:06.280 Lincoln took charge of the Senate and banned him from America and he first went to the South and then went to Canada and while he was in Canada he was nominated to be governor of Ohio and ran and was defeated but he continued to speak out and eventually came back to America and they let him alone but this is a very good book if you want to see some of the things going on in the Civil War 72 00:08:06.280 --> 00:08:14.020 The next big case, and I have a book, but it's a book or series of trials, great trials 73 00:08:14.020 --> 00:08:20.520 in America, and this is about ex parte Milligan. You'll see it listed there by Klaus. It's 74 00:08:20.520 --> 00:08:28.320 a very similar case to Van Landingham. He again was arrested by a military officer, 75 00:08:28.320 --> 00:08:33.700 tried by a military court where the civil courts were available, and he was sentenced 76 00:08:33.700 --> 00:08:40.160 was to death. And his case got to the Supreme Court after the war had ended. Dan Landinghams, 77 00:08:40.160 --> 00:08:43.060 he tried to appeal to the Supreme Court and they didn't hear it, but the war was still 78 00:08:43.060 --> 00:08:50.660 going on. When Milligan appealed his case, the war was over. And this is one of the great 79 00:08:50.660 --> 00:08:57.020 decisions of the U.S. Supreme Court. They reversed the conviction and said that the 80 00:08:57.020 --> 00:09:02.700 fact that a war was going on did not suspend the Constitution. It was just as effective 81 00:09:02.700 --> 00:09:08.100 during war as it was during peacetime. And you'll see during the trial of William Bentsen 82 00:09:08.100 --> 00:09:15.100 that the U.S. Attorney is arguing that the Constitution is suspended during wartime. It's 83 00:09:15.100 --> 00:09:21.100 a great decision. It's been attacked over and over, but it's one of the, I think, one 84 00:09:21.100 --> 00:09:26.940 of the great decisions of the Supreme Court. Another book I recommend to you is Lincoln's 85 00:09:26.940 --> 00:09:36.300 Lincoln's Wrath, it's a fairly new book and is mainly about one trial. 86 00:09:36.300 --> 00:09:43.060 Lincoln took over about 300 newspapers, confiscated the presses and put them out of business because 87 00:09:43.060 --> 00:09:45.320 they were critical of the war. 88 00:09:45.320 --> 00:09:52.060 And this is about one of those trials and shows you the fiercely unconstitutional acts 89 00:09:52.060 --> 00:10:07.340 Another book I want to mention in the Spanish-American War is Twelve Against the Empire, the Anti-Imperialist 90 00:10:07.340 --> 00:10:14.140 in 1898-1900. These were twelve men who were classical liberals and they were not from 91 00:10:14.140 --> 00:10:19.500 the left, of course, and they opposed the Spanish-American War primarily when they found 92 00:10:19.500 --> 00:10:36.500 The War was really about getting the Philippines. There was one man that also recommended the book Atkinson. Mr. Atkinson was one of the twelve mentioned here. He was from Boston. He was a merchant there. 93 00:10:36.500 --> 00:10:53.500 And he wrote letters and cards, about 100,000 of them, and addressed them personally to all the soldiers serving in the Philippines, and told them to mutiny and to just lay down their arms and not take part in the war. 94 00:10:53.500 --> 00:11:02.500 And there was no law to arrest him on, but they confiscated all of those cards and letters and did not allow them to be sent out of the United States. 95 00:11:02.500 --> 00:11:15.500 and it would be my opinion that his actions, Atkinson's actions of trying to cause mutiny is what caused the passage of the Eskimoj Act during World War I, which we'll get to. 96 00:11:15.500 --> 00:11:23.500 But that's a very good book and it shows how America is now becoming an empire and how they opposed it. 97 00:11:23.500 --> 00:11:44.500 Getting to World War I, this won't be anything to show up, but Opponents of War by Peterson and Fipe is one of the best books on World War I and the dissent that was waged mainly by socialists. 98 00:11:44.500 --> 00:11:52.680 The laws that were passed during the First World War, and these all come up in the William 99 00:11:52.680 --> 00:12:00.720 Dunson trial, the Selective Service Act was passed in May of 1917, and then the Espionage 100 00:12:00.720 --> 00:12:11.240 Act was passed in June of 1916, and then the Sedition Act was passed in May of 1918. 101 00:12:11.240 --> 00:12:16.040 So all three of those acts eventually were in place during World War I and you had people 102 00:12:16.040 --> 00:12:20.840 that tried to avoid the draft, people that were arrested under the Espionage Act and 103 00:12:20.840 --> 00:12:24.520 finally under the Sedition Act. 104 00:12:24.520 --> 00:12:32.000 Under the Espionage Act it made it unlawful for you to try to encourage mutiny or to interfere 105 00:12:32.000 --> 00:12:38.360 with the operation of the military and we'll get into the facts of the Denson case and 106 00:12:38.360 --> 00:12:40.720 show how that took place. 107 00:12:40.720 --> 00:12:51.220 There were 2,168 trials under the Espionage Act and 1,055 were convicted and 1,113 not 108 00:12:51.220 --> 00:12:56.920 guilty so it was a less than 50% rate of conviction. 109 00:12:56.920 --> 00:13:01.400 It was because of that low rate of conviction in the Espionage Act that the Sedition Act 110 00:13:01.400 --> 00:13:08.020 was passed in May of 1918 and of course the trial of William Denson is in July of 1918 111 00:13:08.020 --> 00:13:11.920 But he's charged under the Espionage Act, not the Sedition Act. 112 00:13:11.920 --> 00:13:18.780 But the thing that makes his case so volatile is that Eugene Debs was tried and convicted 113 00:13:18.780 --> 00:13:26.180 under the Sedition Act in June of 1918, just two or three weeks before Benson went on trial. 114 00:13:26.180 --> 00:13:29.580 So it was an inflammatory period. 115 00:13:29.580 --> 00:13:37.140 The international socialist in 1890 labeled capitalism as the main cause of war and tried 116 00:13:37.140 --> 00:13:44.040 to encourage all socialists throughout the world to avoid any war. 117 00:13:44.040 --> 00:13:50.220 And so nationalism and socialism came into direct conflict when World War I broke out. 118 00:13:50.220 --> 00:13:56.060 Some socialists objected to the war and some fought for their countries. 119 00:13:56.060 --> 00:14:01.220 The International Workers of the World was a strong socialist union in America called 120 00:14:01.220 --> 00:14:04.940 the Wobblies and many of them protested against the war. 121 00:14:04.940 --> 00:14:13.340 and that's how the ACLU got into protecting socialists from the government on their dissent. 122 00:14:13.340 --> 00:14:17.700 They were dissenting on the basis that they wanted to destroy capitalism and they thought 123 00:14:17.700 --> 00:14:29.220 that capitalism was causing the war so that's sort of the whole anti-war ideas sort of in 124 00:14:29.220 --> 00:14:34.100 place were from socialists and that's how the anti-war movement got such a bad name 125 00:14:34.100 --> 00:14:41.100 In my opinion, in World War I, it was the leftists that were protesting, whereas in the Spanish-American War, it was classical liberals. 126 00:14:43.100 --> 00:14:53.100 Anyway, Eugene Debs was sentenced to 10 years in the penitentiary, and in June of 1918, and he served three years, he received a million votes for president. 127 00:14:54.100 --> 00:15:02.100 And then the Sedition Act was finally repealed in 1920, and the Espionage Act stayed in place. 128 00:15:04.100 --> 00:15:16.100 One thing I wanted to mention, the George Creel's committee, the Committee on Public Information, I found a book at home, I didn't bring it, it's called The Four Minute Men. 129 00:15:16.100 --> 00:15:22.100 And another one of my relatives was a Four Minute Man, which was a propagandist for the war. 130 00:15:22.100 --> 00:15:30.100 And I've heard and read various descriptions of why they named it The Four Minute Men, but this book tells the story about it. 131 00:15:30.100 --> 00:16:00.100 is that back in 1918 the movies when they showed a movie they would have to change the reels and it took four minutes to change the reels so the committee on public information George Creel selected people in every community to go to the movie theater and give a speech during that intermission so you had a captive audience and they gave four minute speeches in favor of the war and this reached millions and millions of people sometimes they had to hear it over and over but they were there to see the movie 132 00:16:00.100 --> 00:16:03.100 and then they had to listen to the pro-war speech. 133 00:16:09.100 --> 00:16:14.100 Another, well let me mention this, the certain things during World War I, 134 00:16:14.100 --> 00:16:21.100 that's when really the government came down hard on the economy, 135 00:16:21.100 --> 00:16:27.100 nationalized the railroads, expanded the income tax to cover everybody 136 00:16:27.100 --> 00:16:37.220 and extremely high rates, passed the Food and Fuel Act of August 1917, Herbert Hoover took 137 00:16:37.220 --> 00:16:41.900 charge of that and learned about all of his pro-government activities at that time, managing 138 00:16:41.900 --> 00:16:52.100 the fixing prices, and created the War Industries Board with Bernard Baruch, handling price 139 00:16:52.100 --> 00:17:22.100 The next book is on World War II, a trial-on-trial, this was a great sedition trial of 1944, Lawrence Dennis and Maximilian St. George Roosevelt was determined to prosecute somebody for sedition, so they put that in the New Deal, and they put that in the New Deal, and they put that in the New Deal, and they put that in the New Deal, and they put that in the New Deal, and they put that in the New Deal, 140 00:17:22.100 --> 00:17:28.900 These people on trial under the Smith Act, which passed in 1940, and it was a complete debacle. 141 00:17:28.900 --> 00:17:33.700 Lawrence Dennis served as his own attorney, and the trial went on and on. 142 00:17:33.700 --> 00:17:38.500 Finally, a judge died, and they brought in another judge, and finally the thing just sort of collapsed. 143 00:17:38.500 --> 00:17:49.100 But it's a good survey on dissent during World War II. 144 00:17:49.100 --> 00:17:58.100 And finally, in the Vietnam War, the book Secrets by Daniel Ellsberg is highly recommended to you. 145 00:17:58.100 --> 00:18:08.100 He's very active now in the dissent against this war, and he states that his great regret is that he did not dissent earlier in the Vietnam War. 146 00:18:08.100 --> 00:18:15.100 It's a courageous story. He talks about how he went to Vietnam as a soldier and was very much for the war. 147 00:18:15.100 --> 00:18:45.100 And then he came back and worked for the RAND Corporation and did research for the government officials and he would see the reports and see that they were saying that the war couldn't be won, that we needed to get out and then the officials would get up and all talk about how the war was going great and he gives the instance where he was with McNamara and McNamara read this report about how things were so terrible and then had a press conference and told everybody everything was going great. 148 00:18:45.100 --> 00:19:15.100 and realize that the people were not being told the truth about the war and made the decision to release the Pentagon Papers to the New York Times and of course that went to trial and the New York Times was sustained in the Supreme Court and the trial was so unfair that the federal judge finally threw it out as you will probably recall the government agents broke into the psychiatrist office of Ellsberg to try to steal the records to attack him with and they were caught and when the judge found out about 149 00:19:15.100 --> 00:19:28.880 So with that background, I'll get into the Denson trial. 150 00:19:28.880 --> 00:19:35.300 My first knowledge of William Denson was when I was a freshman in law school and I was taking 151 00:19:35.300 --> 00:19:42.720 a course the second semester in appellate procedure and the professor said we were going 152 00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:51.800 to study the trials and the appeals of a very brilliant but very eccentric lawyer from Birmingham 153 00:19:51.800 --> 00:19:57.160 named Wild Bill Denson. And so as I was walking out of the classroom, he called me aside and 154 00:19:57.160 --> 00:20:01.960 said, since we're going to be discussing Mr. Denson, is he any kin to you? I said, 155 00:20:01.960 --> 00:20:07.000 oh, I've never heard of him. And so I went home and asked my father who was a lawyer 156 00:20:07.000 --> 00:20:11.960 and I said, they had him take a course on Wild Bill Denson, is he any kin to us? He 157 00:20:11.960 --> 00:20:14.960 Yes, but you don't need to know anything about him. 158 00:20:14.960 --> 00:20:28.960 So all information was cut off and I never heard anything about him again until a cousin of mine in Texas sent me that from the cartoon about the trial and I began to try to find out more about it. 159 00:20:28.960 --> 00:20:38.960 But my father did tell me a little about Wild Bill's father and it's an old saying, I guess it's a southern expression, that the acorn didn't fall too far from the tree. 160 00:20:38.960 --> 00:20:50.960 While Bill was very much like his father, his father was born in 1846. His name was William Denson. He was the oldest brother of my grandfather. 161 00:20:50.960 --> 00:20:59.960 He was a 17-year-old, I guess, when he joined the Confederate Army and fought in some of the really tough battles. 162 00:20:59.960 --> 00:21:29.960 and then after the reconstruction ended in 1876, he ran for the Alabama legislature when Confederate soldiers could then hold office and he must have taken part in the Grover Cleveland campaign because Cleveland appointed him the US Attorney for two different districts in Alabama and finally he ran for Congress and was elected in 1890 and his campaign promise was that if he was elected 163 00:21:29.960 --> 00:21:40.960 The first thing he was going to do, and I'm going to tone this down a little bit, is that when he got to the Capitol steps, he was going to find the first damn Republican and kick his butt down the Capitol steps. 164 00:21:40.960 --> 00:21:45.960 And the legend is that he kept that campaign promise. 165 00:21:45.960 --> 00:21:58.960 And my grandfather, his youngest brother that he sort of looked after was on the Alabama Supreme Court, and he had run statewide, and he was very embarrassed about his brother's language and rambunctious conduct. 166 00:21:58.960 --> 00:22:04.960 and so he wrote him a letter and told him to tone down his campaign and his brother wrote him back. 167 00:22:04.960 --> 00:22:07.960 This is why Bill's daddy wrote him back and called him Nimmi. 168 00:22:07.960 --> 00:22:11.960 He said, Nimmi, what scares you is just fun to me. 169 00:22:11.960 --> 00:22:13.960 And so he didn't tone it down at all. 170 00:22:13.960 --> 00:22:17.960 So he served in Congress for 10 years and died in 1907. 171 00:22:17.960 --> 00:22:23.960 So he was not living at the time his son was put on trial. 172 00:22:23.960 --> 00:22:33.960 And I think that's one reason my grandfather represented him because Wild Bill's father was not there to defend him. 173 00:22:33.960 --> 00:22:45.960 But I think one reason my father had a low opinion of Wild Bill is that the name William Denson is sort of a revered name in our family. 174 00:22:45.960 --> 00:22:52.960 And I'll tell you a little bit about the original ancestor that Wild Bill and his father were named for was named William Denson. 175 00:22:52.960 --> 00:23:22.960 and he was born in London and his father died when he was a year old and so he came to America at age 17 in 1638 and financed his trip by making a contract with a Mr. Pitts in Virginia at a large plantation and became what's called an indentured servant he agreed to work for him for seven years I guess at either no wages or low wages and room and board so he was a young teenager striking out on his own 176 00:23:22.960 --> 00:23:30.960 He was a Quaker, and at that time, that's still within the period of the Thirty Years' War that didn't end until 1648. 177 00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:35.960 So Quakers were very much discriminated against as dissenters in England. 178 00:23:35.960 --> 00:23:43.960 And the English Civil War was just four years away, so it was a time of great political turmoil. 179 00:23:43.960 --> 00:23:47.960 So I'm not sure exactly what all his reasons for coming to America were. 180 00:23:47.960 --> 00:23:56.960 But he set out on his own and as an indentured servant came to this county in Virginia that did not discriminate against Quakers. 181 00:23:56.960 --> 00:24:03.960 He was eventually elected to the House of Burgesses in 1659. 182 00:24:03.960 --> 00:24:06.960 And I remember reading this 40 years ago in Williamsburg. 183 00:24:06.960 --> 00:24:08.960 There's a plaque about the House of Burgesses. 184 00:24:08.960 --> 00:24:11.960 And I guess this may have been the first House of Burgesses. 185 00:24:11.960 --> 00:24:13.960 But he was elected to that. 186 00:24:13.960 --> 00:24:21.700 and he eventually acquired one or more ships and used those ships to bring in more settlers, 187 00:24:21.700 --> 00:24:28.400 colonists to Virginia and the king rewarded him for that and gave him 450 acres of land 188 00:24:28.400 --> 00:24:31.440 and he built a home and the foundation is still there. 189 00:24:31.440 --> 00:24:38.020 But I went through William and Mary one time and tried to research this a little bit and 190 00:24:38.020 --> 00:24:47.420 I found some petitions signed by his sons in the 1660s or 70s and they were protesting 191 00:24:47.420 --> 00:24:53.800 to the King of England that they were loyal colonists and yet their German neighbors were 192 00:24:53.800 --> 00:24:58.860 not having to pay the tax and I'm not sure why that was but the thought came to me as 193 00:24:58.860 --> 00:25:02.820 I was sitting there in that library that Thomas Jefferson was a student there a hundred years 194 00:25:02.820 --> 00:25:09.420 was later, and maybe he read some of those petitions and maybe it inspired him somewhat 195 00:25:09.420 --> 00:25:12.980 for the tax protests that went on in the American Revolution. 196 00:25:12.980 --> 00:25:18.060 But with that history of William Vinson, my father felt that while Bill had disgraced 197 00:25:18.060 --> 00:25:23.540 the family name by being arrested and put on trial, and as you'll see, my father was 198 00:25:23.540 --> 00:25:28.740 a, if we get into the trial, while Bill talks about him being a soldier in France getting 199 00:25:28.740 --> 00:25:38.740 I don't know exactly why my father had a low opinion of Wild Bill, but that's some of the background. 200 00:25:38.740 --> 00:25:45.740 I'll read you one more interesting sidelight on Wild Bill. 201 00:25:45.740 --> 00:25:58.740 This is a book, Pilgrim in the Ruins, which is one of the biographies of Walker Percy. 202 00:25:58.740 --> 00:26:04.740 I've read several of these. Walker Percy is what I call a New South writer. 203 00:26:04.740 --> 00:26:09.740 I don't like his writings. Movie Goa is one. I don't know if you've ever read that. 204 00:26:09.740 --> 00:26:32.740 Walker Percy's father and Wild Bill got into a duel, not that the practice of law was always a tame affair, even as late as the 1920s, so this would be after the trial. 205 00:26:32.740 --> 00:26:35.740 There was still something of a raw frontier edge to Birmingham. 206 00:26:35.740 --> 00:26:38.740 The carrying of pistols was not unheard of. 207 00:26:38.740 --> 00:26:44.440 In fact, even Leroy came close to shooting it out with another lawyer, a brilliant and 208 00:26:44.440 --> 00:26:51.900 intimidating man named Will Denson. Fortunately, they only came close. Denson, who had represented 209 00:26:51.900 --> 00:26:57.520 union people against the corporations, came up against Percy and other defenders of business 210 00:26:57.520 --> 00:27:04.020 interest in court and was known to be a very good shot. He practiced with his pistol every 211 00:27:04.020 --> 00:27:17.740 Every morning, squeezing off 50 rounds with each hand every morning in downtown Birmingham. 212 00:27:17.740 --> 00:27:20.380 And he also won most of his cases. 213 00:27:20.380 --> 00:27:25.740 Intimidating as Denson was, Percy, now Percy's father, Walter Percy's father that's having 214 00:27:25.740 --> 00:27:31.440 a duel was a very prominent lawyer in Birmingham who represented a lot of corporate interests. 215 00:27:31.440 --> 00:27:37.600 And obviously, he and Wild Bill got into a lot of disputes in court. 216 00:27:37.600 --> 00:27:40.920 After a particularly heated confrontation, the two decided to settle the matter with 217 00:27:40.920 --> 00:27:43.120 pistols. 218 00:27:43.120 --> 00:27:47.800 On an appointed morning, they drove to the country and found a secluded spot. 219 00:27:47.800 --> 00:27:50.080 Percy asked for a chance to practice. 220 00:27:50.080 --> 00:27:51.500 Denson consented. 221 00:27:51.500 --> 00:27:56.800 Percy lined up six pine cones and blasted away, six hits. 222 00:27:56.800 --> 00:28:01.360 In this one respect, at least Leroy was not like his father, he was a very good shot. 223 00:28:01.360 --> 00:28:04.160 Denson then asked to take the same practice shots. 224 00:28:04.160 --> 00:28:05.880 Percy could not very well refuse. 225 00:28:05.880 --> 00:28:08.040 Six hits, dead and true. 226 00:28:08.040 --> 00:28:13.120 Percy then destroyed six more pinecones, and again Denson followed suit. 227 00:28:13.120 --> 00:28:16.040 The warm-up rounds apparently had a conciliatory effect. 228 00:28:16.040 --> 00:28:21.680 Quote, clearly, we're both too good with these things to be doing this, said Percy. 229 00:28:21.680 --> 00:28:24.880 Denson agreed, and they returned to their cars, and still enemies, but with much more 230 00:28:24.880 --> 00:28:28.080 respect for each other. 231 00:28:28.080 --> 00:28:58.080 So that will give you a little background on Wild Bill. And he obviously had a lot of enemies, especially in the legal profession. And the trial started on a Thursday. The courtroom was packed. It was federal court. And I've never heard of a judge doing this, but the judge let lawyers sit around inside the rail when they didn't have enough chairs. And the courtroom was packed and they let them open the doors. 232 00:28:58.080 --> 00:29:02.580 and for two days it was a packed courtroom and I guess they came to see the dream team 233 00:29:02.580 --> 00:29:19.560 defense but also to see if Wild Bill got his comeuppance and go into prison. 234 00:29:19.560 --> 00:29:26.240 Count one, he was indicted in April of 1918, which was a month before the Sedition Act 235 00:29:26.240 --> 00:29:33.800 and put on trial in July 1918, a month after the Sedition Act was passed. 236 00:29:33.800 --> 00:29:40.680 So count one of the indictments stated, he did willfully and knowingly cause mutiny or 237 00:29:40.680 --> 00:29:46.880 insubordination or refusal of duty among the military and naval forces. 238 00:29:46.880 --> 00:29:49.760 And count two was he attempted to do the same. 239 00:29:49.760 --> 00:29:56.800 So it would seem to be fairly easy to convict someone of the attempt to do that. 240 00:29:56.800 --> 00:30:04.520 So the plan of the defense was strictly to show that all the statements he made, and 241 00:30:04.520 --> 00:30:09.440 they were pretty inflammatory, as we'll get into against Wilson, would clearly be a violation 242 00:30:09.440 --> 00:30:11.000 of the Sedition Act. 243 00:30:11.000 --> 00:30:17.640 But what the defense was, don't convict the man for saying things that was lawful to say 244 00:30:17.640 --> 00:30:28.540 As I said, my grandfather was the chief counsel and he had been chairman of the Democrat delegation 245 00:30:28.540 --> 00:30:35.200 that went to the national convention from Alabama and re-nominated Wilson for a second 246 00:30:35.200 --> 00:30:38.840 term, primarily on the basis that he kept us out of war. 247 00:30:38.840 --> 00:30:43.080 So I think that's one reason my grandfather was willing to defend Wild Bill because I 248 00:30:43.080 --> 00:30:50.080 I think that he felt betrayed by Wilson in violating his campaign promise to keep us out of war. 249 00:31:00.360 --> 00:31:06.520 Now here's the statement that finally got Bill indicted. I might mention you'll see 250 00:31:06.520 --> 00:31:11.280 in the book by Peterson and Fite that there were various organizations of citizens that 251 00:31:11.280 --> 00:31:22.280 by the Justice Department and sanctioned by the Justice Department to spy on American citizens and turn them in to the authorities. 252 00:31:22.280 --> 00:31:27.280 And I feel sure that's what happened because Bill made no public speeches. 253 00:31:27.280 --> 00:31:31.280 All of these are private conversations he's having with individuals that he knows. 254 00:31:31.280 --> 00:31:35.280 Some of them are alleged clients. I think they were put up to entrap him. 255 00:31:35.280 --> 00:31:40.280 But he was sitting in a restaurant during a trial at lunch and there were many lawyers present 256 00:31:40.280 --> 00:31:41.280 President. 257 00:31:41.280 --> 00:31:47.060 And someone began to be critical of Congressman Huddleston from Birmingham who had voted 258 00:31:47.060 --> 00:31:49.880 against the Selective Service Act. 259 00:31:49.880 --> 00:31:56.160 And as the criticism mounted, Bill began to defend Huddleston for his action. 260 00:31:56.160 --> 00:32:00.600 And then Bill said he thought the act was unconstitutional in itself and should never 261 00:32:00.600 --> 00:32:02.160 have been passed. 262 00:32:02.160 --> 00:32:07.080 And someone at the table became very angry with him and stated that anybody that defended 263 00:32:07.080 --> 00:32:09.820 Huddleston should be afraid of being arrested. 264 00:32:09.820 --> 00:32:14.960 So Bill told him that he had no fear of that because you had a constitutional right to 265 00:32:14.960 --> 00:32:19.940 either praise or criticize public officials and you had a duty to do so. 266 00:32:19.940 --> 00:32:23.960 And then he stated, quote, I might go out and criticize the President himself and say 267 00:32:23.960 --> 00:32:27.860 he's a traitor and ought to be hung and the law could not touch me. 268 00:32:27.860 --> 00:32:30.820 Little did he know. 269 00:32:30.820 --> 00:32:36.460 So I think that's the statement that first got to the U.S. Attorney and got him indicted 270 00:32:36.460 --> 00:32:38.700 in April of 1918. 271 00:32:38.700 --> 00:32:45.380 At the trial there were 22 witnesses against him and Mr. Scribler testified that Bill stated 272 00:32:45.380 --> 00:32:51.020 on another occasion, quote, to hell with the President, he should be hung to a lamppost, 273 00:32:51.020 --> 00:32:56.780 end quote. Mr. M.P. Smith said he heard Bill say in a private conversation, the only reason 274 00:32:56.780 --> 00:33:01.700 the United States entered the war was to get back money loaned to the allies, end quote. 275 00:33:01.700 --> 00:33:07.020 Jack Bell heard Denson say in April 1918, quote, the United States had no business in 276 00:33:07.020 --> 00:33:11.460 in this war, and if people had stayed off the ships, they would not have been sunk, 277 00:33:11.460 --> 00:33:15.060 end quote, because he's talking about the Lusitania there. 278 00:33:15.060 --> 00:33:19.700 Mr. Riley Logan stated, he heard Bill state in a private conversation, quote, I would 279 00:33:19.700 --> 00:33:24.100 support the government if it was fighting for the right cause, but this war is not being 280 00:33:24.100 --> 00:33:26.460 fought for the right cause. 281 00:33:26.460 --> 00:33:31.660 A Judge Walker said that Bill advised some of his clients to fill out questionnaires 282 00:33:31.660 --> 00:33:36.900 for the draft and told them to claim all exemptions allowed by the law. 283 00:33:36.900 --> 00:33:41.960 A Fred Fight, a candidate that the aviation field in Texas was coming through Birmingham, 284 00:33:41.960 --> 00:33:46.680 and on the way to Washington he stated he went to Bill for advice on a matter and during 285 00:33:46.680 --> 00:33:52.980 the discussion stated quote, Bill stated, President Wilson got us into this war and 286 00:33:52.980 --> 00:33:57.900 we have no right to be in this war. 287 00:33:57.900 --> 00:34:02.380 Several witnesses said they heard Bill state quote, Wilson was elected on a peace platform 288 00:34:02.380 --> 00:34:04.200 and he turned into a traitor. 289 00:34:04.200 --> 00:34:08.360 He ought to be hanged and I, for one, would be glad to see it. 290 00:34:08.360 --> 00:34:14.140 Another person stated that there was a discussion at another dinner conversation about the Macklemore 291 00:34:14.140 --> 00:34:21.240 Resolution in Congress which had warned Americans to stay off ships going into the danger zones 292 00:34:21.240 --> 00:34:22.440 of England. 293 00:34:22.440 --> 00:34:27.680 And Bill stated that he had supported the Macklemore Resolution and thought it was an 294 00:34:27.680 --> 00:34:33.020 excellent thing and the crowd reacted very strongly against him on that. 295 00:34:33.020 --> 00:34:39.820 Bill Whitney said that he was a client and went to Bill for advice and asked if under 296 00:34:39.820 --> 00:34:44.620 the U.S. Constitution could an American citizen be compelled to go to France and fight their 297 00:34:44.620 --> 00:34:50.420 war. And Bill advised him just to claim all the exemptions possible under the draft. And 298 00:34:50.420 --> 00:34:54.140 the man stated that he would be willing to fight to defend America but saw no reason 299 00:34:54.140 --> 00:34:59.620 to go to France and fight their war. Bill did not advise him not to go and didn't advise 300 00:34:59.620 --> 00:35:10.620 I think this is part of the entrapment. I think that the U.S. Attorney got various people to go to him. I can't imagine a real client going and asking for this kind of advice. 301 00:35:10.620 --> 00:35:19.620 I think they were sending people in there and trying to get Bill to advise them not to go or to avoid the draft or do something like that. 302 00:35:19.620 --> 00:35:27.620 and then he would clearly have been guilty under the Espionage Act if they had not gone, if they'd taken that advice. 303 00:35:27.620 --> 00:35:33.620 But the thing that really endured me to Bill was his own defense. 304 00:35:33.620 --> 00:35:39.620 He got up and testified, and he's not one I'm sure that you could coach. 305 00:35:39.620 --> 00:35:46.620 He's got all these great lawyers there to advise him, but he takes his own defense and gets up and testifies 306 00:35:46.620 --> 00:36:00.620 I've criticized President Wilson because he was elected on a peace platform under the promise he would keep America out of the war. 307 00:36:00.620 --> 00:36:04.620 He departed from his platform and violated his promise to the people. 308 00:36:04.620 --> 00:36:09.620 He could have kept us out of this war, and he could have kept his promise, but he didn't. 309 00:36:09.620 --> 00:36:17.620 A man elected on a peace platform and then immediately goes and is elected and goes to Congress and asks for war, then he is a traitor to the people. 310 00:36:17.620 --> 00:36:25.620 I criticized him for doing that and a man had a constitutional right to criticize the President at the time I stated that. 311 00:36:25.620 --> 00:36:29.620 I was not critical of the government or of Congress or the military, just the President. 312 00:36:29.620 --> 00:36:34.620 I had a brother in the Army who was a Colonel and had been in the Army for 24 years. 313 00:36:34.620 --> 00:36:39.580 My first cousin, Nim Denson, that's my father, was already in France getting ready to go 314 00:36:39.580 --> 00:36:41.500 into the trenches. 315 00:36:41.500 --> 00:36:46.180 So I had no reason to say anything that would hurt my kin who were in the Army getting ready 316 00:36:46.180 --> 00:36:47.420 to fight. 317 00:36:47.420 --> 00:36:50.900 My criticism was strictly of the President. 318 00:36:50.900 --> 00:36:56.100 Then here's the statement that he volunteers without anybody asking him and that I really 319 00:36:56.100 --> 00:36:58.260 thought this is sensational. 320 00:36:58.260 --> 00:37:11.260 He said, I still think all of those things right now, but I wouldn't say them since they've passed the sedition act. 321 00:37:11.260 --> 00:37:23.260 That's what you always advise a client, saying, don't volunteer anything, you know, and maybe they'll think you've changed your mind or you regret having said it, and eat it back off a bit. 322 00:37:23.260 --> 00:37:27.260 I still think it, I just don't say it since they've passed the sedition act. 323 00:37:27.260 --> 00:37:34.060 In the final arguments, Ralph Quinn was a U.S. Attorney. He opened by making the argument 324 00:37:34.060 --> 00:37:40.180 that the President did not declare war, that Congress declared it. He stated further that 325 00:37:40.180 --> 00:37:45.300 violations of international law by the Germans led America to getting into the war. Of course, 326 00:37:45.300 --> 00:37:52.620 that's, I guess, submarine warfare, sinking ships that are supposed to be passenger ships 327 00:37:52.620 --> 00:38:05.180 He says there's a difference in the interpretation of free speech privilege under the Constitution 328 00:38:05.180 --> 00:38:09.980 in times of peace and in times of war. 329 00:38:09.980 --> 00:38:15.500 He is in effect saying that the Constitutional protection of free speech is suspended during 330 00:38:15.500 --> 00:38:16.500 wartime. 331 00:38:16.500 --> 00:38:18.420 That was part of his jury argument. 332 00:38:18.420 --> 00:38:22.920 He said the necessity of severe discipline in time of war affects the ability to speak 333 00:38:22.920 --> 00:38:24.980 out against the war. 334 00:38:24.980 --> 00:38:29.260 He said the authority and the esteem vested in the President as Commander-in-Chief of 335 00:38:29.260 --> 00:38:33.700 the Army should not be attacked in time of war. 336 00:38:33.700 --> 00:38:41.500 And then my grandfather got up and argued that he is indicted only for interfering with 337 00:38:41.500 --> 00:38:46.540 the operation of the military under the Espionage Act and that the law at the time that he was 338 00:38:46.540 --> 00:39:13.540 The jury went out at 8 o'clock on Friday. They kept them together in the hotel and then they came back at noon on Saturday and found him not guilty. 339 00:39:13.540 --> 00:39:21.540 and they could easily have convicted him, especially after his statement that he said that he had not withdrawn his thoughts. 340 00:39:21.540 --> 00:39:26.540 He still thought exactly that same thing about Wilson and just wasn't saying it anymore. 341 00:39:26.540 --> 00:39:37.540 So that is the trial of Wild Bill Denson and sort of give you a little history of the effect during World War I of dissent and what was going on. 342 00:39:37.540 --> 00:39:42.540 So at this time I'll be glad to entertain any questions that any of you have. 343 00:39:43.540 --> 00:39:56.820 Okay, well I've got these books here, if any of you want to come up and look at them. 344 00:39:56.820 --> 00:40:05.260 He continued to do well, he remained very controversial, as you can see he got into 345 00:40:05.260 --> 00:40:18.340 I think that his law practice went down and I think he suffered greatly from it socially. 346 00:40:18.340 --> 00:40:20.840 I don't know if that mattered to him or not. 347 00:40:20.840 --> 00:40:27.500 One thing that I thought about on this is both of his sons graduated from West Point 348 00:40:27.500 --> 00:40:32.460 and I just wondered if that was sort of a reaction to try to compensate for their father's 349 00:40:32.460 --> 00:41:01.460 One of them, Renda, retired as a two-star general, and his son, Bill, Wild Bill's son was named Bill, he went on to Harvard Law School and became a very good Wall Street trial lawyer, and there's a book written about him, and I knew this Bill pretty well when I was a graduate. 350 00:41:01.460 --> 00:41:14.460 When I was a graduate student in New York, I used to have dinner with him, but I had heard that he was a prosecutor at Nuremberg, and I was against the Nuremberg trial, so I never brought it up, but he wasn't at Nuremberg, he was at Dachau. 351 00:41:14.460 --> 00:41:26.460 He died about two years ago, and this is a book about him, Justice at Dachau, and he was the chief prosecutor in the Dachau trials. 352 00:41:26.460 --> 00:41:56.460 trials. One famous case he had was he practiced with his father for a short time and then he went to New York but he represented the Saturday Evening Post when Bayer-Bronk sued him for libel and that's the suit that put the Saturday Evening Post out of business but the most interesting thing about Bill I wish I had known when I was talking to him because I had dinner at his house, his wife was German. He met her while he was prosecuting the Dachau cases 353 00:41:56.460 --> 00:42:26.460 and she was a survivor of Dresden and she was a small, well a teenage girl I guess at the time but she and many other members of their family were escaping the Russians as they were coming and went to Dresden because it was a non-military target and of course the firebombing that went on and she survived by being in a basement most everybody in the house was killed but her and so she and Bill met and married while he was in Germany and Bill spoke very highly 354 00:42:26.460 --> 00:42:34.460 I never brought Wild Bill up because at that time I didn't know that much about him. I wish I had known more about Wild Bill. 355 00:42:34.460 --> 00:42:41.460 Bill thought very highly of him and said he was just a fabulous lawyer. But I think that he did suffer from that trial. 356 00:42:41.460 --> 00:42:49.460 And I think that he was not well thought of because he was attacking, you know, suing businesses and very successful at it. 357 00:42:49.460 --> 00:42:55.460 So it probably hurt him a great deal. Any other questions? Tom? 358 00:42:55.460 --> 00:43:18.960 The only thing I know about the trial is what I read in the Birmingham papers. They didn't 359 00:43:18.960 --> 00:43:23.760 covered in any great extent they just gave you the certain highlights of 360 00:43:23.760 --> 00:43:30.560 testimony but it certainly could have used some of that about Lincoln the the 361 00:43:30.560 --> 00:43:34.840 the thing that's interesting to me about the wartime dissent in Lincoln there 362 00:43:34.840 --> 00:43:40.480 were 30,000 trials that are the records are all there I don't know if any of you 363 00:43:40.480 --> 00:43:46.640 read the book the fate of Liberty by as listed in here the guys head of the 364 00:43:46.640 --> 00:43:54.920 Lincoln Museum was going to try to dispel the thing that Lincoln was trying people unconstitutionally. 365 00:43:54.920 --> 00:44:00.680 And he read 13,000 transcripts of trials where people were tried, just like Van Landingham 366 00:44:00.680 --> 00:44:02.200 and Milligan. 367 00:44:02.200 --> 00:44:07.560 And he then makes a statement, I think in the book Fate of Liberty, that there were 368 00:44:07.560 --> 00:44:11.760 30,000 trials and about a 99% rate of conviction. 369 00:44:11.760 --> 00:44:17.760 and these people that were tried by military courts in the North where the courts were open 370 00:44:17.760 --> 00:44:23.760 and those were all held to be, I mean, the one case held that that was an unconstitutional act 371 00:44:23.760 --> 00:44:29.760 to try people in a military court in a place where the regular courts are still open. 372 00:44:29.760 --> 00:44:34.760 So that's 30,000 unconstitutional trials that took place during the Lincoln administration 373 00:44:34.760 --> 00:44:38.760 that are well documented if somebody wanted to do some research. 374 00:44:38.760 --> 00:44:42.520 Your third book on Lincoln can be on the... 375 00:44:42.520 --> 00:44:46.280 Tom's got another book on Lincoln coming out. 376 00:44:46.280 --> 00:44:50.640 It's funny, my wife gets after me about reading so much, 377 00:44:50.640 --> 00:44:55.600 and so we took a trip on the Orient Express train trip, 378 00:44:55.600 --> 00:44:57.880 and she made me promise I wouldn't bring any books, 379 00:44:57.880 --> 00:45:00.780 and so I just ordered the book 380 00:45:00.780 --> 00:45:02.480 they had recommended for the trip, 381 00:45:02.480 --> 00:45:05.680 and one was, I wrote you about this, 382 00:45:05.680 --> 00:45:08.200 When the Whistle Blows, or something like that. 383 00:45:08.200 --> 00:45:13.800 It's just about railroad history, and lo and behold, there's a whole chapter on how crooked 384 00:45:13.800 --> 00:45:21.440 Lincoln was, and he, as a railroad lawyer, he found out where the railroad was going 385 00:45:21.440 --> 00:45:27.360 to go, the Transcontinental Railroad, so he bought the land in 1858, or somewhere around 386 00:45:27.360 --> 00:45:28.360 that period of time. 387 00:45:28.360 --> 00:45:32.240 Then when he got to be president, they had a law passed that the president could determine 388 00:45:32.240 --> 00:45:37.160 where the railroad went, so naturally he put it on his property, and it's the most flagrant 389 00:45:37.160 --> 00:45:43.040 The corruption, I guess I've ever seen, but the corruption against the war dissent in 390 00:45:43.040 --> 00:45:44.840 the Lincoln administration is just awesome. 391 00:45:44.840 --> 00:45:50.320 I mean, those trials, that's probably one of the main ways he won reelection in 1864 392 00:45:50.320 --> 00:45:56.280 is the intimidating factor of trying these people on military courts without lawyers, 393 00:45:56.280 --> 00:45:58.320 without being an arrest warrant. 394 00:45:58.320 --> 00:46:04.520 They just break in your house, put you in a room and convict you and send you to prison. 395 00:46:04.520 --> 00:46:11.320 So 30,000 of those as compared to the Espionage Act which is just 2,000 trials. 396 00:46:11.320 --> 00:46:12.320 Any other questions? 397 00:46:12.320 --> 00:46:16.320 Okay, well thank you very much, it's always a pleasure for me to be back from New Zealand.