WEBVTT NOTE Judicial Welfare: The Case of School Funding 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:10.000 We're starting off the quarter with a kind of a two-pronged look at legislation in Alabama, 2 00:00:10.000 --> 00:00:21.120 and our first seminar is going to be given by Mr. John Hay, who is a research associate 3 00:00:21.120 --> 00:00:28.840 with the Alabama Family Alliance, and he is working with the governor and the governor's 4 00:00:28.840 --> 00:00:34.840 The Federal Reserve's Office on the issue of school funding, and that's what he's going to be talking about today, 5 00:00:34.840 --> 00:00:38.840 judicial welfare, the case of school funding in the state of Alabama. 6 00:00:38.840 --> 00:00:41.840 So, welcome John, and take it away. 7 00:00:41.840 --> 00:00:46.840 Thanks for having me. I have to say, right at the start, I'm more of a formal speaker, 8 00:00:46.840 --> 00:00:50.840 so we'll see how I do in this kind of setting. 9 00:00:50.840 --> 00:00:54.840 But basically we're going to be talking about judicial welfare, 10 00:00:54.840 --> 00:01:03.840 And by that, we don't mean welfare in perhaps the common sense that we all think of welfare or food stamps, AFDC, things like that. 11 00:01:03.840 --> 00:01:12.840 But we will be talking about a special kind of welfare that still involves transfers of monies from a specified party to another party. 12 00:01:12.840 --> 00:01:21.840 I guess Cleveland will talk, Dr. Cleveland will talk about Bastiat some, but I like a quote that Bastiat had. 13 00:01:21.840 --> 00:01:31.840 Well, it's called welfare or socialism, the politics of plunder, and basically that's what we're going to be talking about here in the judicial welfare cases. 14 00:01:31.840 --> 00:01:36.840 Sometimes this plunder is accomplished through a so-called representative vote. 15 00:01:36.840 --> 00:01:44.840 Usually this is accomplished after long appeals to decency, compassion, and all the other heart-strain issues. 16 00:01:44.840 --> 00:01:48.840 Sometimes the redistribution is accomplished through the bureaucratic tinkering. 17 00:01:48.840 --> 00:01:54.640 It's amazing what unelected bureaucrats can accomplish without anyone knowing about it. 18 00:01:54.640 --> 00:02:01.140 And still other times, this redistribution is a result of decrees from a judge's bench. 19 00:02:01.140 --> 00:02:04.520 In the case of school funding, we get a little bit of everything. 20 00:02:04.520 --> 00:02:09.280 We of course have emotional pills for the sake of the children. 21 00:02:09.280 --> 00:02:14.720 This emotional onslaught led to the compulsory education that we have today, in which all 22 00:02:14.720 --> 00:02:18.300 children are required to attend school. 23 00:02:18.300 --> 00:02:23.100 At this point I should point out that the Constitution is silent on education and the Alabama Constitution 24 00:02:23.100 --> 00:02:31.480 doesn't provide any inherent right to education either, but you want to know that according 25 00:02:31.480 --> 00:02:37.860 to the plaintiff's brief in the latest lawsuit. 26 00:02:37.860 --> 00:02:45.940 Some people don't quite realize that the argument for financing school education is that the 27 00:02:45.940 --> 00:02:53.940 The whole of the society benefits from this education, which is also, of course, the reason we made it compulsory, and therefore the whole area should pay for the education. 28 00:02:53.940 --> 00:03:01.940 In other words, for a publicly financed education, the parents of the children are, on average, getting a pretty good deal. 29 00:03:01.940 --> 00:03:13.940 And we could call this a type of welfare in which monies are transferred from the whole population to a specified group, the parents of the children, for the purposes of the children's education. 30 00:03:13.940 --> 00:03:17.940 However, it goes much further than that in the current lawsuit. 31 00:03:18.940 --> 00:03:31.940 Basically, the plaintiffs in the lawsuit charge, and I'm going to paraphrase, that due to the rampant racism, meanness, selfishness and general unfairness of life, they've gotten a raw deal. 32 00:03:33.940 --> 00:03:42.940 You see, some areas of our state have citizens that have a higher average income and net worth than other areas. 33 00:03:43.940 --> 00:03:48.940 These same areas also have higher property values than other areas. 34 00:03:48.940 --> 00:03:55.940 This is seen as unfair because even at equivalent rates, whether you're talking about sales tax or property taxes, 35 00:03:55.940 --> 00:04:01.940 the so-called richer areas will raise more revenue for their schools than the poorer areas. 36 00:04:01.940 --> 00:04:07.940 To add insult to injury, these richer areas often tax themselves at higher rates than the poorer areas, 37 00:04:07.940 --> 00:04:12.940 which creates a large gap in school funding. 38 00:04:12.940 --> 00:04:28.940 The plaintiffs basically came and got together and argued that it's not enough for education to be adequate, it needs to be equitable or equal, which of course is a word that gets bandied about a lot nowadays. 39 00:04:28.940 --> 00:04:37.940 They haven't had any relief through the representative body or the legislature and no one's really bought the argument. 40 00:04:37.940 --> 00:04:54.940 Basically, I guess most Alabamians are willing to put up with helping fund their neighbors' kids, but they're not willing to help fund kids halfway across the state. 41 00:04:54.940 --> 00:05:04.940 So, of course, the only relief, if you want to have your will as far as getting more money for educational funding, is to go through the courts. 42 00:05:04.940 --> 00:05:14.940 The best way to do this would be to find a sympathetic judge who harbored ambitions for higher office, and that is what they did. 43 00:05:14.940 --> 00:05:24.940 Circuit, the court case, Alabama Coalition for Equity, which is now v. Jim Folsom Jr. was, of course, filed under Guy Hunt's administration, 44 00:05:24.940 --> 00:05:33.940 and was later also consolidated with Mary Hopper and some others and Alabama Disabilities Advocacy Program. 45 00:05:33.940 --> 00:05:45.940 They filed this before Judge Gene Reese, who is a county circuit court judge, which we'll get to that later as to where his authority stands on the issue. 46 00:05:48.940 --> 00:05:59.940 Basically, the governor's position has been that the judge did not have the authority to tell the legislature and the governor what to do. 47 00:05:59.940 --> 00:06:07.940 The Separation of Powers Doctrine is found in the United States Constitution, but is also found specifically in the Alabama Constitution. 48 00:06:07.940 --> 00:06:23.940 Judge Gene Reese has asserted that he does have the authority, but when push comes to shove, he has extended his deadlines twice, when basically everyone has just ignored his orders to comply. 49 00:06:23.940 --> 00:06:39.440 To show you a couple of the social engineering, the do-good-isms and just the general social leveling that is inherent in this remedy order that Judge Gene Reese came up with, 50 00:06:39.440 --> 00:06:51.940 I'd like to read you a few of the gems in his findings and the opening statements are the finding that all Alabama students, all Alabama students can learn at significantly higher levels. 51 00:06:51.940 --> 00:07:03.940 The diversity, including racial and ethnic, that parents, teachers and students bring to Alabama's education system must be respected, and all education must be provided in an atmosphere free from prejudice of whatever variety. 52 00:07:03.940 --> 00:07:19.940 Then he provides us with the capacity that he expects students to acquire sufficient support and guidance so that every student feels a sense of self-worth and ability to achieve, and so that every student is encouraged to live up to his or her full human potential. 53 00:07:19.940 --> 00:07:25.540 Now, there's not a whole lot of education going on right now. 54 00:07:25.540 --> 00:07:29.100 And then as far as implementation, he says that you shouldn't track students. 55 00:07:29.100 --> 00:07:33.980 A paragraph later he says, students with cognitive disabilities should be taught economic, social, 56 00:07:33.980 --> 00:07:37.860 self-help skills and environments which are the same as those in which they shall perform 57 00:07:37.860 --> 00:07:38.860 those skills. 58 00:07:38.860 --> 00:07:45.100 So in other words, you can't track them, but you have to separate them too. 59 00:07:45.100 --> 00:07:51.240 However, the saddest aspect of the remedy order, at least from my perspective, is that 60 00:07:51.240 --> 00:07:55.920 beneath all the talk of educational performance and student achievement lies the implicit conclusion 61 00:07:55.920 --> 00:08:01.040 that the terms adequate and equitable are defined solely in dollars. 62 00:08:01.040 --> 00:08:08.200 His remedy order doesn't even have a marginally specific definition of educational performance. 63 00:08:08.200 --> 00:08:12.620 It does, however, contain a long list of physical inputs the state is required to furnish, 64 00:08:12.620 --> 00:08:16.300 as well as the levies to be used to raise the necessary revenue. 65 00:08:16.300 --> 00:08:26.620 And just to pick out a couple select ones to show you about, under programs he requires 66 00:08:26.620 --> 00:08:30.880 that appropriate student teacher ratios and adequate guidance, health and library services 67 00:08:30.880 --> 00:08:34.240 along with adequate clerical and support staff. 68 00:08:34.240 --> 00:08:39.300 Anyone who has tracked school staff over the last 30 years knows that they don't need more 69 00:08:39.300 --> 00:08:55.300 A State Plan shall be developed and implemented that minimizes the degree to which health 70 00:08:55.300 --> 00:09:00.540 problems, malnutrition, abuse and neglect, and lack of basic necessities, i.e. housing 71 00:09:00.540 --> 00:09:05.220 and clothing, interfere with students' access to an adequate and equitable education. 72 00:09:05.220 --> 00:09:09.500 The state plan shall include funding to assist students in elementary and secondary schools 73 00:09:09.500 --> 00:09:13.560 and provide an operating budget and staffing based on the number of at-risk students in 74 00:09:13.560 --> 00:09:14.560 the school. 75 00:09:14.560 --> 00:09:20.460 That, of course, at-risk is actually defined as the number of students eligible for free 76 00:09:20.460 --> 00:09:25.700 or reduced-price lunches, which probably gives you a window of insight into the furor over 77 00:09:25.700 --> 00:09:32.900 the school lunch controversy in our nation's capital, and that is all government programs 78 00:09:32.900 --> 00:09:51.100 All schools which are eligible for a school breakfast program shall implement it. Parental 79 00:09:51.100 --> 00:10:00.900 education programs will be provided for parents of disadvantaged students in grades K-3. 80 00:10:00.900 --> 00:10:04.740 An early childhood education development program shall be developed and implemented to supplement 81 00:10:04.740 --> 00:10:06.340 Head Start. 82 00:10:06.340 --> 00:10:10.040 Preschool services for 3 to 5 year olds shall be provided for children with disabilities. 83 00:10:10.040 --> 00:10:15.420 So we're going to start up a 3 to 5 year old school for disabled children. 84 00:10:15.420 --> 00:10:17.660 These are extra schools and programs. 85 00:10:17.660 --> 00:10:22.820 I think it's at this point that it becomes rather obvious that the remedy order has as 86 00:10:22.820 --> 00:10:28.180 much to do with salvaging and preserving what we have traditionally thought of as welfare 87 00:10:28.180 --> 00:10:32.460 programs as it does in furthering education. 88 00:10:32.460 --> 00:10:38.380 So even if you want to talk to someone about proving that education funding is a case of 89 00:10:38.380 --> 00:10:42.980 welfare, well, you pretty much have an easy job at it now, he's explicitly united them 90 00:10:42.980 --> 00:10:50.060 all in one little basket, or one big and growing basket, or the better. 91 00:10:50.060 --> 00:10:55.780 Under buildings, Judge Reese declares that schools shall have adequate science laboratories, 92 00:10:55.780 --> 00:10:59.700 Computer and Foreign Language Facilities, Administrative Offices, Sick Rooms, Auditoriums, Gymnasiums, 93 00:10:59.700 --> 00:11:03.700 Cafeterias, Athletic Facilities, and Vocational Facilities. 94 00:11:03.700 --> 00:11:08.460 They shall have libraries and media spaces appropriate in equipment, lighting, and materials. 95 00:11:08.460 --> 00:11:11.900 The spaces shall be of suitable size and format, and on and on and on. 96 00:11:11.900 --> 00:11:18.260 It's just minute detail, the same and is comparable to what a lot of judges have done to the prison 97 00:11:18.260 --> 00:11:24.740 system in that they have specifically said that each prisoner is entitled to three frisbees 98 00:11:24.740 --> 00:11:34.660 My favorite order is that school buildings and grounds shall be clean, safe, and sanitary. 99 00:11:34.660 --> 00:11:38.220 Bathroom supplies, including soap, paper towels, and toilet paper, shall be in available and 100 00:11:38.220 --> 00:11:46.060 adequate supply. 101 00:11:46.060 --> 00:11:50.220 All buses built before 1977 shall be replaced immediately. 102 00:11:50.220 --> 00:11:54.620 All students who meet reasonable distance requirements will be provided with free transportation. 103 00:11:54.620 --> 00:12:01.500 So basically, this is a catch-all to make sure that every kid that could possibly get 104 00:12:01.500 --> 00:12:05.460 free transportation will get it, even if parents have been making sacrifices or people have 105 00:12:05.460 --> 00:12:06.620 been carpooling or whatever. 106 00:12:06.620 --> 00:12:12.660 Now the impetus will be to just go ahead and be bussed. 107 00:12:12.660 --> 00:12:18.220 And then there is a long, page-long list or so of all the materials that the state needs 108 00:12:18.220 --> 00:12:29.460 In the next section, which may even be the longest specific section, Judgery Steals with 109 00:12:29.460 --> 00:12:35.780 Students with Disabilities, after you read this section, it becomes clear that the entire 110 00:12:35.780 --> 00:12:42.300 educational program will be built around disabled students, not that they will be mainstreamed, 111 00:12:42.300 --> 00:13:08.580 The funding program sets forth how the funding will happen. 112 00:13:08.580 --> 00:13:10.640 This is where it gets really interesting. 113 00:13:10.640 --> 00:13:15.200 The state shall establish a foundation program to adequately fund every child's education. 114 00:13:15.200 --> 00:13:19.720 The state is six years in which to totally phase in this program. 115 00:13:19.720 --> 00:13:25.000 School funding, both among schools, school systems, among schools, within school systems 116 00:13:25.000 --> 00:13:26.240 shall be equitable. 117 00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:32.560 The funding system shall minimize educational disadvantages due to economic or social deprivation. 118 00:13:32.560 --> 00:13:38.120 The foundation program shall require a uniformed local tax effort equalized by the state so 119 00:13:38.120 --> 00:13:48.120 so that every school child shall receive an adequately funded educational opportunity regardless of factors such as local indifference, low aspirations, or other conditions unrelated to educational need. 120 00:13:48.120 --> 00:13:59.120 So basically, the parents don't care, the community doesn't care, the kid doesn't care, but gosh darn, he's going to do good in school, you know, and we're going to make sure. 121 00:13:59.120 --> 00:14:14.120 Authorization for local school system taxes shall be uniform. School systems shall distribute all resources among the schools within each system in an equitable manner. The system of fringe benefits for local school employees shall be equalized by incorporation into the foundation program. 122 00:14:14.120 --> 00:14:18.120 Equitable and equalized are a big catch phrase in here. 123 00:14:18.120 --> 00:14:23.120 Basically what it means is that under the system as it now is, 124 00:14:23.120 --> 00:14:30.120 a community or tax levy authority is assured of the percentage of local revenue 125 00:14:30.120 --> 00:14:32.120 that will be coming back to their school. 126 00:14:32.120 --> 00:14:39.120 They usually set that percentage themselves when they pass the bill or whatever the levy is. 127 00:14:39.120 --> 00:14:53.120 Well, now basically what we're saying is it'll go to the state and there we might mix it up a little, you know, and spread it out a little and just make things kind of equal. 128 00:14:53.120 --> 00:14:59.120 And this is, of course, what some people have characterized, you know, robbing Peter to pay Paul, it's the politics of plunder. 129 00:14:59.120 --> 00:15:06.120 It just sounds good and it sounds, according to the Constitution, you know, hey, everybody's equal. 130 00:15:06.120 --> 00:15:22.120 Unless you have any doubt that this is the case, he says that the funding system shall direct relatively greater resources to children with measurably greater needs. A waiting system shall be established for this purpose. 131 00:15:22.120 --> 00:15:32.120 As an aside, I should probably say that the poor school systems also have an incredibly high proportion of children that have been diagnosed with disabilities. 132 00:15:32.120 --> 00:15:44.120 In fact, Alabama is almost a, I shouldn't say, it's very high. In some counties it's 30% or so. 133 00:15:44.120 --> 00:15:55.120 It basically came about through the SSI disabilities program and the retroactive payments that were available for parents of school children who acted up. 134 00:15:55.120 --> 00:16:04.120 And so if they act up, and as an article in the Birmingham News said, they act dumb, we can buy them pretty things and at least they look good. 135 00:16:04.120 --> 00:16:08.120 So that's what we have going on in a lot of the poorer school systems. 136 00:16:08.120 --> 00:16:14.120 So of course the state's caught in a catch-22 in some areas because another part of the order says of course, 137 00:16:14.120 --> 00:16:20.120 now that I've set up all the incentives for you to have more kids diagnosed as disabled, I just want to make sure that you don't do that. 138 00:16:20.120 --> 00:16:23.120 And that's the other thing it says in that same paragraph. 139 00:16:23.120 --> 00:16:50.120 This part of the revenue order could even result in a poorer school system sleeping ahead of the so-called richer school systems in that they will have been equalized and then you also will have additional waiting for children with disabilities. 140 00:16:50.120 --> 00:16:57.120 Now, I'm not going to talk about this from an immoral perspective, we can get to that at the end. 141 00:16:57.120 --> 00:17:08.120 I'm just saying that no matter what you hear, the goal is flat, serious attempts at equality. 142 00:17:08.120 --> 00:17:13.120 Not adequacy, but equality as we would think, sameness. 143 00:17:13.120 --> 00:17:19.120 He also goes on to say that the transportation funding will be separate from the foundation program. 144 00:17:19.120 --> 00:17:36.120 The State has to see how much it will cost to fund the transportation program, in other words, we're going to meet all the so-called educational goals of Judge Reese, and then we're also going to meet the transportation goals of Judge Reese, and there will be separate funding programs, and that is so that they all can grow. 145 00:17:36.120 --> 00:17:45.120 In other words, the state will, when they look at transportation costs, will not look at the money they have and try to say, we're going to take this much towards transportation and this much to this. 146 00:17:45.120 --> 00:17:51.480 The state has to see how much it will cost to fund the remedy order, say, in transportation, 147 00:17:51.480 --> 00:17:52.480 and then they have to meet it. 148 00:17:52.480 --> 00:17:56.800 And that's just the way it is, as far as the remedy order is concerned. 149 00:17:56.800 --> 00:18:01.760 Then another foundation, I should say foundation program, another fund shall be provided outside 150 00:18:01.760 --> 00:18:05.280 the foundation program to eliminate all physical plant deficiencies within five years. 151 00:18:05.280 --> 00:18:11.740 This is, of course, the schools with the ceilings falling down, and priority will be according 152 00:18:11.740 --> 00:18:17.140 According to per capita, it will not be according to per capita, but according to needs. 153 00:18:17.140 --> 00:18:23.660 So once again, use of facility obviously could be correlated with the amount of students 154 00:18:23.660 --> 00:18:29.580 that go through it, but in this case it will be correlated with how well or not how well 155 00:18:29.580 --> 00:18:31.580 a local school system is taking care of their building. 156 00:18:31.580 --> 00:18:36.140 If they haven't taken very good care of it, they'll get more money and the building will 157 00:18:36.140 --> 00:18:37.140 be updated. 158 00:18:37.140 --> 00:18:43.340 okay so basically what I'd like to point out as far as this this case for school 159 00:18:43.340 --> 00:18:50.660 funding that you've heard about in Judge Reese's court is a classic from my 160 00:18:50.660 --> 00:18:57.180 perspective example of a way to redistribute the wealth and of course the 161 00:18:57.180 --> 00:19:02.740 bow cries the children the children how can you not help the children and under 162 00:19:02.740 --> 00:19:18.740 This guy's, not only educational equity will be achieved, but all kinds of, what we used to think of as pure welfare type programs will be folded into the educational program and then will also be funded. 163 00:19:22.740 --> 00:19:23.740 Quite a mess. 164 00:19:23.740 --> 00:19:24.740 It's a real mess. 165 00:19:24.740 --> 00:19:35.740 I know it gets a little boring when you read straight from the remedy orders and things like that, but there's really nothing good in it. 166 00:19:35.740 --> 00:19:48.740 I hate to say it that way, but of course the people of Alabama thought so also and overwhelmingly rejected the judge's bid for the high court. 167 00:19:48.740 --> 00:20:00.380 Report. So, we're kind of stuck in the, kind of, he said, she said, he said, Goenner said, 168 00:20:00.380 --> 00:20:10.380 and who's going to call whose bluff? I mean, Judge Reis is seeing no compulsion to charge 169 00:20:10.380 --> 00:20:15.660 anybody with anything for not failing to come through on his remuneration. So, it's going 170 00:20:15.660 --> 00:20:18.180 to be kind of interesting to see how that plays out. 171 00:20:18.180 --> 00:20:28.180 So before we get into the specifics, what does happen if the remedy order is simply ignored? 172 00:20:28.180 --> 00:20:33.180 Well, if the remedy order is ignored, we will have editorials in the paper that tell us how backward we are, 173 00:20:33.180 --> 00:20:39.180 and what a redneck status is, and we need to catch up, and we have a judge now, 174 00:20:39.180 --> 00:20:45.180 and why are we rejecting what the judge says and all that stuff. 175 00:20:45.180 --> 00:20:54.180 But I think that Judge Reese is just going to extend. I think you're going to probably see at least one more extension. 176 00:20:54.180 --> 00:20:59.180 And I think what's basically going to happen is the gun race is going to come up with some kind of plan. 177 00:20:59.180 --> 00:21:05.180 It's not going to touch hardly any of these points. There's going to be some attempt at helping out the poor school systems. 178 00:21:05.180 --> 00:21:13.180 And that will kind of settle out of the limelight, so to speak. That's what I think is going to happen. 179 00:21:13.180 --> 00:21:16.780 So the feds can't come in it? 180 00:21:16.780 --> 00:21:23.660 Well, if it gets past Governor James' administration, maybe the feds will come in, but I think as 181 00:21:23.660 --> 00:21:30.700 long as Governor James is governor, it will be tried to be settled at state level as much 182 00:21:30.700 --> 00:21:31.700 as possible. 183 00:21:31.700 --> 00:21:36.820 Who's the plaintiff coalition again? 184 00:21:36.820 --> 00:21:40.620 It's the Alabama Coalition for Equity. 185 00:21:40.620 --> 00:21:46.620 Forgot that they changed the titles, changed a couple of times because of consolidation, 186 00:21:46.620 --> 00:21:51.940 but it's the Alabama Coalition for Equity, then another series of plaintiffs is individuals, 187 00:21:51.940 --> 00:21:59.260 parents and their children, and Mary Harper et al. is how it's put, and then the Alabama 188 00:21:59.260 --> 00:22:04.460 Disabilities Advocacy Program, so there's three classes of plaintiffs that have been 189 00:22:04.460 --> 00:22:11.020 and Consolidate Together, and then the defendant is, the only defendant left is the governor. 190 00:22:11.020 --> 00:22:18.060 All the other defendants switched over to plaintiffs and left, you know, the governor 191 00:22:18.060 --> 00:22:27.180 standing and the state school board of education switched back and forth more than once. 192 00:22:27.180 --> 00:22:32.880 I read in the Wall Street Journal a few years ago that a, I believe it was a federal judge 193 00:22:32.880 --> 00:22:37.360 ordered an increase in local taxes to support the busking program. 194 00:22:37.360 --> 00:22:42.560 Is there any sort of precedent for what this judge is doing? 195 00:22:42.560 --> 00:22:44.640 I don't know what the resolution is with that 196 00:22:44.640 --> 00:22:48.640 federal court. 197 00:22:48.640 --> 00:22:51.800 I'm not familiar with that exact one. I know 198 00:22:51.800 --> 00:22:57.280 as far as federal law, the case of Kansas City is the most 199 00:22:57.280 --> 00:22:59.680 comprehensive case in which the federal 200 00:22:59.680 --> 00:23:01.640 judge 201 00:23:01.640 --> 00:23:06.640 not only specifically set up the whole curriculum, set the whole busing scheme, set the whole 202 00:23:06.640 --> 00:23:11.360 physical plan scheme or what the buildings would be like, Judge Reese goes close but 203 00:23:11.360 --> 00:23:19.680 not that far, he even passed the tax, just said here you have this tax, pay it, and it's 204 00:23:19.680 --> 00:23:21.240 going to go to education. 205 00:23:21.240 --> 00:23:27.120 In Kansas City I think, just off the top of my head, they're spending approximately $8,000 206 00:23:27.120 --> 00:23:32.560 for People, I think, now on education, which is one of the highest I've ever heard of. 207 00:23:32.560 --> 00:23:36.560 Haven't I heard that the results have not shown any improvement in the education? 208 00:23:36.560 --> 00:23:43.200 No, they haven't. It's been, I mean, it's been like all studies of funding and educational 209 00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:45.760 performance. There's no relationship. 210 00:23:45.760 --> 00:23:47.760 There's no relationship. 211 00:23:47.760 --> 00:23:53.120 As a matter of fact, if you look at Alabama, there may be a slight inverse relationship. 212 00:23:53.120 --> 00:23:59.560 Alabama's per-pupil spending has more than tripled, and that's in real dollars in the 213 00:23:59.560 --> 00:24:06.400 last 30 years, and test scores have decreased a couple tenths, as far as ACT, have decreased 214 00:24:06.400 --> 00:24:08.920 a couple tenths at percentage point. 215 00:24:08.920 --> 00:24:16.720 I'm concerned about the quality of the teachers, the training and the ability of the teachers, 216 00:24:16.720 --> 00:24:21.280 and I didn't hear any of that referred to the teaching staff. 217 00:24:21.280 --> 00:24:25.280 Well, basically what there is part in here for the teaching staff and it's to give them 218 00:24:25.280 --> 00:24:30.800 extra staff days for professional development and to give them extra professional development 219 00:24:30.800 --> 00:24:36.880 programs which is, you know, which is how they would say they're getting more training. 220 00:24:36.880 --> 00:24:43.980 But a lot of this development will be is, it's not said, but basically is to recognize 221 00:24:43.980 --> 00:24:49.260 the diversity of the school population and also meet special children and you know, it's 222 00:24:49.260 --> 00:24:53.260 It's the whole social training that the teachers will go through. 223 00:24:53.260 --> 00:25:01.260 I had an understanding that a lot of the teachers in Alabama are very under-qualified. 224 00:25:01.260 --> 00:25:05.260 Now that's going too far, I'm sure, but we do have that problem. 225 00:25:05.260 --> 00:25:06.260 We do have it. 226 00:25:06.260 --> 00:25:07.260 You have no comment. 227 00:25:07.260 --> 00:25:08.260 No, we do have a problem. 228 00:25:08.260 --> 00:25:14.260 And I would think that's the first thing, if you want to approve a school that you would go to. 229 00:25:14.260 --> 00:25:16.260 Well, I would agree. 230 00:25:16.260 --> 00:25:18.260 I would definitely agree. 231 00:25:18.260 --> 00:25:35.260 If I could just play God or be a judge, whichever, I would just write out, you know, I'd love to write out an order and it'd be radically different from this one. 232 00:25:35.260 --> 00:25:44.260 This one, I just, is basically more, it's social, it's more than educational. 233 00:25:44.260 --> 00:25:47.260 How far is it that you made things your style? 234 00:26:14.260 --> 00:26:23.660 Well, I guess the equivalent would be due process, and they have taken that and from that say, 235 00:26:23.660 --> 00:26:28.180 well that means of course a liberal education. 236 00:26:28.180 --> 00:26:32.780 Well they said basically de facto education is a right that systems recognize, they burden 237 00:26:32.780 --> 00:26:37.540 themselves to pay for it and they've made it mandatory. 238 00:26:37.540 --> 00:26:43.740 Then they say that this education then will of course just by definition be liberal, liberal 239 00:26:43.740 --> 00:26:50.740 I read some figures recently, and I'm not prepared to verify my exact figures, but they were approximately, that in America we're spending about $1,000 per child that's disabled, about $2,000 a year. 240 00:27:13.740 --> 00:27:29.740 $7.50 per child who is gifted. In other words, we are spending a great deal of our... this is nationwide. Nationwide programs, perhaps. Perhaps not the whole deal, but the y'all. That seems to me to be highly inequitable and stupid. 241 00:27:29.740 --> 00:27:59.740 Well, you know I would say that a society that targets, targets subsidence to, and this is going to sound hard, I'm just talking on a pure practical level, there's always of course room for personal charity and church charity, community organization charity, but when you target and set up societies or a portion of society in which you subsidize basically those who don't make it or those who have difficulties, don't produce, whatever, 242 00:27:59.740 --> 00:28:06.740 really creating a situation that's not going to last, in other words, a civilization that's not going to stay coherent. 243 00:28:06.740 --> 00:28:12.740 It was like what you were saying with the quality of the building. If they don't take care of their building and things start falling apart, 244 00:28:12.740 --> 00:28:19.740 then those are the schools that are going to get money to have their buildings completely redone, refurbished. 245 00:28:19.740 --> 00:28:26.740 Right, and like earlier, the SSI thing, the disability, I mean, we're talking 30% of some children. 246 00:28:26.740 --> 00:28:32.540 And I think it's, pardon this, this was a Birmingham News investigative story just a couple of months ago. 247 00:28:32.540 --> 00:28:37.740 And we, of course, were on the national news some about that shame, shame, shame on Alabama. 248 00:28:37.740 --> 00:28:44.660 They're always, you know, making all the kids, all these kids, you know, disabled. 249 00:28:44.660 --> 00:28:50.260 We had nothing, you know, the state, there's no malice intended, it is the parents. 250 00:28:50.260 --> 00:28:55.980 And they will not let you take their children off or let you retest the children 251 00:28:55.980 --> 00:28:59.020 to make sure it wasn't a fluke and that they are actually normal and not disabled. 252 00:28:59.020 --> 00:29:03.140 Of course, they've been coached, a lot of them have been coached at it. 253 00:29:03.140 --> 00:29:09.940 So you, when you say disabilities, you're not talking about physical disabilities, you're talking about 254 00:29:09.940 --> 00:29:15.580 learning disabilities. When disabilities is talked about in remedy order, it's not talking about 255 00:29:15.580 --> 00:29:20.460 someone who's lost a leg or a child with multiple sclerosis or anything like that, we're talking about 256 00:29:20.460 --> 00:29:23.980 disabilities as we have come to know them after the 257 00:29:23.980 --> 00:29:29.260 Disabilities Act, American Disabilities Act, and that is disability, anything that you 258 00:29:29.260 --> 00:29:31.360 think is a disability. 259 00:29:31.360 --> 00:29:39.260 So I mean hyperactivity has become attention deficit disorder, I know some children do 260 00:29:39.260 --> 00:29:44.900 indeed have it, but it's just being diagnosed at astounding rates these days, astounding 261 00:29:44.900 --> 00:29:45.900 rates. 262 00:29:45.900 --> 00:29:48.220 How do they get the SSI benefits? 263 00:29:48.220 --> 00:29:57.780 for kids who act up and you get lump sum so you get lump sum back payment and so 264 00:29:57.780 --> 00:30:02.820 you can prove that your kids start acting up six years ago and that you just 265 00:30:02.820 --> 00:30:07.620 now gotten around to filing well you know you're eligible for six full years 266 00:30:07.620 --> 00:30:17.260 worth of crazy money some people call it crazy money and so and so the what 267 00:30:17.260 --> 00:30:21.580 The top cases, these are the exact same areas, they're coinciding with the areas in which 268 00:30:21.580 --> 00:30:28.940 the plaintiffs reside, asking for more money and what we supposedly strictly educational 269 00:30:28.940 --> 00:30:29.940 expenditures. 270 00:30:29.940 --> 00:30:34.340 And so, yeah, I'm familiar with this in a different angle. 271 00:30:34.340 --> 00:30:43.060 This is when the parents coach the kids to go in and they get quote unquote tested. 272 00:30:43.060 --> 00:30:44.340 Right. 273 00:30:44.340 --> 00:30:50.260 And if they qualify, they're given this money, and they're also put on Ritalin, right? 274 00:30:50.260 --> 00:30:51.860 The narcotic drugs? 275 00:30:51.860 --> 00:30:52.860 Not necessarily. 276 00:30:52.860 --> 00:30:54.940 It may not even be treated. 277 00:30:54.940 --> 00:31:03.940 Okay, well see, I came across this in a different connection where the counselor or whatever 278 00:31:03.940 --> 00:31:09.500 would put them on Ritalin to suppress this, but they would also get the money too. 279 00:31:09.500 --> 00:31:13.700 I mean, the reason the parents would coach them is to get the money. 280 00:31:13.700 --> 00:31:20.740 But the attempt to remedy the situation is by putting the kids on the top. 281 00:31:20.740 --> 00:31:21.740 Right. 282 00:31:21.740 --> 00:31:26.380 I mean, you know, it's just, just drug them and take the money, and of course, that doesn't 283 00:31:26.380 --> 00:31:28.340 leave much room for individual treatment. 284 00:31:28.340 --> 00:31:33.900 I mean, when you're warehousing kids through the school counselor's office, you're not, 285 00:31:33.900 --> 00:31:40.580 you can't really be claiming that you're doing it for a child's good, all of that is, of 286 00:31:40.580 --> 00:32:10.580 It's approximately 30% in some counties of school-aged children have tested or in the process of testing, knowing that they will test positive for disabilities or they act up, because that is now a disability, I mean that is now a disorder, you know, defiant disorder, there's a disorder, oppositional disorder, defiant disorder, there's a disorder, there's a disorder, there's a disorder, there's a disorder, 287 00:32:10.580 --> 00:32:26.580 You know, if you've ever, you should go through DSM4, go through DSM4, it's better than buying a joke book or something like that. 288 00:32:26.580 --> 00:32:36.580 I shouldn't say that because I was in a graduate of psychology, but I guess then I can say that. 289 00:32:36.580 --> 00:32:48.580 So they're trying to say then that as a matter of doing business, that instead of expelling a child, they're going to pay that child and his parents for having deviated? 290 00:32:48.580 --> 00:33:03.580 Now see, that's not necessarily through the school, and this is through SSI, but Judge Reese is now saying that school funding will be funneled or priority will be given to children who have greater need. 291 00:33:03.580 --> 00:33:08.300 Now, read that as children with disabilities. I mean, they're right. They follow each other. 292 00:33:08.300 --> 00:33:21.900 And so, I mean, it's the age-old perverse incentive. You get paid to be miserable. 293 00:33:21.900 --> 00:33:27.820 The more misery there is, the more money comes in, or at least you can put on misery. 294 00:33:27.820 --> 00:33:35.820 And that's, of course, what a lot of people think is the immoral aspect of all welfare programs. 295 00:33:35.820 --> 00:33:39.820 In SSI, is Social Security, is it Social Security? 296 00:33:39.820 --> 00:33:48.820 Supplemental Social Security, it's the, it was established, I guess, in 70, it's a Carter program. 297 00:33:48.820 --> 00:33:53.820 Near that one, if it's not Carter, I can't say the word. 298 00:33:53.820 --> 00:33:54.820 Nixon? 299 00:33:54.820 --> 00:34:06.820 He did, I mean it's amazing what he, the programs he put in place. 300 00:34:06.820 --> 00:34:10.820 Doesn't that also go for alcoholics and drug addicts? 301 00:34:10.820 --> 00:34:16.820 Oh yeah. They've just put forward bills and of course again we're back to the federal level. 302 00:34:16.820 --> 00:34:18.820 They've just put forward bills to try to cut that out. 303 00:34:18.820 --> 00:34:23.820 But basically, it goes to alcohol and drug addicts because they're an alcoholic or a drug addict. 304 00:34:23.820 --> 00:34:28.820 I mean, that's the reason you get it. Not in spite of, but because of. 305 00:34:28.820 --> 00:34:37.820 And investigate a reporter for Reader's Digest, which I was reading the other day while I was sitting in an office waiting for the doctor. 306 00:34:37.820 --> 00:34:39.820 I got to read the whole thing. 307 00:34:39.820 --> 00:34:52.820 But they would go, this investigative reporter would go down, basically skid row or see the bombs 308 00:34:52.820 --> 00:35:05.820 And social welfare workers, federal bureaucrats, were handing out pamphlets to them saying you may be eligible for SSI benefits, you may be eligible for retroactive lump sums. 309 00:35:05.820 --> 00:35:11.820 And this is what private charity workers are calling death on the installment plan. 310 00:35:11.820 --> 00:35:14.820 Japan people kill themselves. 311 00:35:14.820 --> 00:35:33.820 Isn't there a recent line-up that's been going on in Texas called the Robin's Plan, something like this, a mobilization plan where they're taking money from the rich communities to Dallas and Houston and whatnot and trying to redistribute it throughout the state. Do you know what's come of that? 312 00:35:33.820 --> 00:35:38.820 That may be generally in limbo too, I think right now it is. 313 00:35:38.820 --> 00:35:58.820 Every time they got it situated, there was another deal where the judge ordered this, and then every time they got a plan in place, it was challenged by Dallas or some of the richer school districts, and it was always thrown out as being unconstitutional, so I didn't know if... 314 00:36:08.820 --> 00:36:13.780 One sentence in there that says, no school system will receive less funding in the first 315 00:36:13.780 --> 00:36:15.940 year of this plan than received the year before. 316 00:36:15.940 --> 00:36:18.220 Basically, next year they're going to receive at least as much as they received. 317 00:36:18.220 --> 00:36:21.100 They won't lose money. 318 00:36:21.100 --> 00:36:26.740 So in other words, that sounds good and that holds for the first year or two. 319 00:36:26.740 --> 00:36:32.500 But what it also means, though, is the money they now have may not be taken, but they will 320 00:36:32.500 --> 00:36:38.060 be levied new forms of, you know, getting revenue. 321 00:36:38.060 --> 00:36:43.060 and they will, and those will be directed against the school systems, the Richard school systems. 322 00:36:43.060 --> 00:36:47.060 But those are really only the public school systems, the state school systems. 323 00:36:47.060 --> 00:36:50.060 You can't levy against the private school systems. 324 00:36:50.060 --> 00:36:52.060 No, not yet. 325 00:36:52.060 --> 00:36:54.060 Taxpayers. 326 00:36:54.060 --> 00:37:00.060 Well, I mean, of course, people are sitting there, you know, if they talk about per pupil funding, 327 00:37:00.060 --> 00:37:04.060 but if all the private school kids would go into the public schools, they actually lived, 328 00:37:04.060 --> 00:37:14.060 Is this causing any movement or backlash against this judge? 329 00:37:14.060 --> 00:37:20.060 Do you see any significant trends away from this, or is everyone just running headlong? 330 00:37:20.060 --> 00:37:23.060 He has a lot of people who do not like him. 331 00:37:23.060 --> 00:37:31.060 Like I said before, he blatantly used this issue as his platform for the high court. 332 00:37:31.060 --> 00:37:42.060 and when he gave his, I read what he calls a preliminary remedy order which does, which I asked some lawyers and they said it does not exist 333 00:37:42.060 --> 00:37:50.060 because he's kind of changed remedy order so this is the place one was called preliminary and I was told remedy order is a remedy where it's not 334 00:37:50.060 --> 00:37:59.060 so basically he knows he's kind of threatened but you know he was just gunned down I mean no one bought any of that stuff 335 00:37:59.060 --> 00:38:12.060 Is that because of the issue or is that just because it's him? 336 00:38:12.060 --> 00:38:23.060 Well, I mean, in him, they coincide to a great degree because he is, you know, he's a social engineer. 337 00:38:23.060 --> 00:38:31.060 and he's also the same judge who ordered, you know, this is the same judge who ordered the ballots to be counted in the Hooper Contest. 338 00:38:31.060 --> 00:38:36.060 You know, not to get into partisan politics, but this is the exact same judge. 339 00:38:36.060 --> 00:38:49.060 Judge Reese is the one who started saying that ballots that have no witnesses, signature or notary are in substantial compliance with a law 340 00:38:49.060 --> 00:38:59.060 Well, that's only two provisions is, you have witnesses or a notary, you know, I mean, it's, so, this, this, 341 00:38:59.060 --> 00:39:01.060 He qualified for the Supreme Court. 342 00:39:01.060 --> 00:39:06.060 He qualified, he just, he just, well. 343 00:39:06.060 --> 00:39:12.060 Is there any remedy we have against such a judge? 344 00:39:12.060 --> 00:39:15.060 Well, um. 345 00:39:15.060 --> 00:39:18.060 Can we throw him out? 346 00:39:18.060 --> 00:39:27.060 That's what I was going to look into. That's what my next thing I'm going to look into is personal remedies. 347 00:39:27.060 --> 00:39:30.060 I mean, I don't want to say personal vendetta, but... 348 00:39:30.060 --> 00:39:32.060 I mean, legal remedies. 349 00:39:32.060 --> 00:39:40.060 Personally, in this particular joke, we're going to go into illegal. 350 00:39:40.060 --> 00:39:46.060 Perhaps it'll sound a little more hot than I meant. 351 00:39:46.060 --> 00:40:02.060 Did Alabama do any real studies on the reasons that the schools were not progressing before they went into the court, or did they just assume that if somebody piled in a lot of money that they would get care of the state? 352 00:40:16.060 --> 00:40:23.060 What we need to look at is performance. Of course, unfortunately this is how OB or performance-based 353 00:40:23.060 --> 00:40:29.360 education came about. It was a very good idea, but the people, very people most threatened 354 00:40:29.360 --> 00:40:33.860 by changes in the education establishment are the people that are put in charge of writing 355 00:40:33.860 --> 00:40:40.540 out the changes in the establishment. So we ended up with the same old, same old. But 356 00:40:40.540 --> 00:40:45.900 I did a study that I haven't released because we're still working on some of the line items 357 00:40:45.900 --> 00:41:03.500 I read that court were to take it completely through, and it seemed to me that America 358 00:41:03.500 --> 00:41:11.380 at one time had poverty, but they still learned, America at one time had poor nutrition, and 359 00:41:11.380 --> 00:41:29.380 Children Still Learned. And it seemed to me that a lot of things that were in that court order, if my mother had lived in that community, they wouldn't have had things like that that were not clean for their children to have an atmosphere to sit in. 360 00:41:29.380 --> 00:41:35.380 I want to know, what are those parents doing there to uplift the communities for their own children? 361 00:41:35.380 --> 00:41:41.380 If they really want this, do they want to go after it themselves and make certain that their children learn the English language 362 00:41:41.380 --> 00:41:45.380 so that they can communicate, not drop out of fifth grade? 363 00:41:45.380 --> 00:41:50.380 Or do they want to say, well, we'll buy some computers. 364 00:41:50.380 --> 00:41:56.380 We don't have anybody running a malficia, but we can say we have a computer and it's going to take care of it. 365 00:41:56.380 --> 00:41:58.380 It won't. It just simply won't. 366 00:41:58.380 --> 00:42:21.380 Well, I mean, you're definitely correct. I mean, like we talked about earlier, scores have actually decreased. They've gone down in the wake of tremendous increases in funding. They will say that this funding is still inadequate because other states spend more. 367 00:42:21.380 --> 00:42:25.700 Well, you can always be relatively at the bottom. Someone's always going to be. 368 00:42:25.700 --> 00:42:33.540 And that is just, you know, I mean, we're still spending the same as Germany and Japan, actually a tad more. 369 00:42:33.540 --> 00:42:44.500 But you have children in the classroom now that are taking four and five years longer to finish the seventh grade than they used to. 370 00:42:44.500 --> 00:42:51.780 And this is caused by medical problems that the public isn't even aware of. 371 00:42:51.780 --> 00:42:54.180 And you're spending a lot of money for that. 372 00:42:54.180 --> 00:42:58.580 And you're also spending a lot of money for top administrators in some of these schools. 373 00:42:58.580 --> 00:43:00.820 And I don't think they're checking out. 374 00:43:00.820 --> 00:43:03.140 I think they ought to get busy and say, what's the cause? 375 00:43:03.140 --> 00:43:06.340 And do something about the cause instead of saying, 376 00:43:06.340 --> 00:43:13.460 let's get the money out there and let somebody set up some fairy tale or some way that we might. 377 00:43:13.460 --> 00:43:21.020 There was an article in the Birmingham paper on Sunday where Jimmy Rogers, a writer from 378 00:43:21.020 --> 00:43:26.400 Demopolis, Alabama, said that he had just gone back to his hometown and back to his 379 00:43:26.400 --> 00:43:31.060 old high school, and the town is the same size and the school is the same size, but 380 00:43:31.060 --> 00:43:39.420 when he was there 30 years ago, they had two coaches for all the sports, males and females, 381 00:43:39.420 --> 00:43:47.820 and now the school has nine coaches and I think it's that kind of thing and the administration 382 00:43:47.820 --> 00:43:58.900 that if you went back and said what are the real problems in Alabama education, that's 383 00:43:58.900 --> 00:43:59.900 the kind of thing. 384 00:43:59.900 --> 00:44:01.900 Of course that's also true here at Auburn too. 385 00:44:01.900 --> 00:44:08.420 How do you think that homeschooling and private schooling in the future is going to affect 386 00:44:08.420 --> 00:44:14.000 Education in Alabama. Well I think it's it's definitely affected education the 387 00:44:14.000 --> 00:44:23.220 fact that its growth has contributed to more better educated kids. Can you give some numbers on the growth of numbers of kids? 388 00:44:23.220 --> 00:44:27.420 I wish I'd I wish I'd look that up. It's actually hard to find. It's not kept 389 00:44:27.420 --> 00:44:32.420 track of very well and that's something that I'd be interested in looking at. 390 00:44:32.420 --> 00:44:42.420 In Texas, some of the school systems got their groups together and evaluated. 391 00:44:42.420 --> 00:44:48.420 They had buddy systems and administrators until it was top-heavy with administrators. 392 00:44:48.420 --> 00:44:50.420 They were paying huge salaries, too. 393 00:44:50.420 --> 00:44:58.420 In this country, I mean, I can say that, I feel confident saying that flat out. 394 00:44:58.420 --> 00:45:24.420 They have changed legislation at the federal level quickly, they have stopped things cold quickly, and I think what this is going to do is this is going to open up the whole debate of whether education should be public, period, and whether or not it should be mandatory, period, which I would like to see, I went to private school, I went to public school, I went to private school, I've been to both. 395 00:45:24.420 --> 00:45:27.420 and the ceiling tiles are falling down and just about all of them too. 396 00:45:27.420 --> 00:45:34.920 Yeah, and the thing, also when you're looking at educational scores, for just a second, 397 00:45:34.920 --> 00:45:42.420 I want everybody to realize that you may look and see an increase, but the ACT has been changed. 398 00:45:42.420 --> 00:45:47.720 It's now two separate tests, and what happened was the new one's two points easier than the old one. 399 00:45:47.720 --> 00:45:58.320 And they won't tell you that, but the same cohort, the same year, scored 17.9 on one, 20.1 on the new. 400 00:45:58.320 --> 00:46:00.520 So basically we're looking at roughly two points difference. 401 00:46:00.520 --> 00:46:07.320 So the whole so-called increase, slight increase, after the decrease trend is totally attributable to a new test. 402 00:46:07.320 --> 00:46:13.920 When you look at it overall and adjust the two-point difference, it's a couple of tenths of a percent point less. 403 00:46:13.920 --> 00:46:16.920 The so-called re-centering. 404 00:46:16.920 --> 00:46:18.920 Right, right, SAT. 405 00:46:18.920 --> 00:46:23.920 One of the great things about it is that it makes it impossible to compare scores over time. 406 00:46:23.920 --> 00:46:26.920 That's what the SAT itself has said. 407 00:46:26.920 --> 00:46:30.920 The same thing as with the financial books. 408 00:46:30.920 --> 00:46:34.920 They have different categories each time. 409 00:46:34.920 --> 00:46:38.920 Peter's question about homeschooling. 410 00:46:38.920 --> 00:46:42.920 One of the reasons that it's so hard to track over time 411 00:46:42.920 --> 00:46:47.920 Homeschooling was illegal in the state of Alabama until about 10 years ago. 412 00:46:47.920 --> 00:46:51.920 It was actually illegal in the state to homeschool your kids. 413 00:46:51.920 --> 00:46:54.920 Illegal in a lot of states in the United States. 414 00:46:54.920 --> 00:47:01.920 So that's one of the reasons that there's not a lot of information about it, 415 00:47:01.920 --> 00:47:08.920 is that it was undergrounded for a while and people were being put behind bars because of it. 416 00:47:08.920 --> 00:47:38.520 We've passed by, but I want to respond to your question by equating the amount of money with the result of five games in the first month since you entered post-discipline and reimbursing the authority of the class and the teacher. 417 00:47:38.520 --> 00:47:50.520 You went into classrooms to do that, and for the first time in Alabama, the national scores of Alabama students were above the national level, against the backdrop of pro-racial. 418 00:48:08.520 --> 00:48:38.020 in the future. You have to shift priorities of that budget. I don't think anyone's saying to neglect students' needs. What I'm saying is, it should not be totally shifted to those students who may have a disability, because it may be tough on them, but it is also difficult on the students that are in the same classroom with that child, that they're all in there together. 419 00:48:38.020 --> 00:48:47.020 And so, you have to balance, you want to sound like Spock in Star Trek, you have to balance the needs of the many against the needs of the one and the few and all that stuff. 420 00:48:47.020 --> 00:48:52.020 So, that's basically what we're looking at, yeah. 421 00:48:52.020 --> 00:49:05.020 That's a really interesting point. If we go back to the turn of the century and we look at the origins of a public school, the issue of educating the children is never really the major focus. 422 00:49:05.020 --> 00:49:14.020 It was always cultural thing. We want to Americanize the immigrants. We want to put them all into one school. We want to Protestantize the Catholics, too. 423 00:49:14.020 --> 00:49:20.020 And so the school system, the public school system, was never about education. 424 00:49:20.020 --> 00:49:30.020 And it's really not supposed to be about taking care of children's disabilities or taking care of curing all these social ailments. 425 00:49:30.020 --> 00:49:32.020 But that's what they're used for. 426 00:49:32.020 --> 00:49:47.020 Well, and if you look at the reading nowadays, it becomes quite obvious that it's not to teach children to read or to do this or that, that it is a social program. 427 00:49:47.020 --> 00:50:03.820 I'm going to quote everything, because I'm going to shoot me when I'm done, but he said that, at one time, he said that the education of one generation will be the beliefs of the next. 428 00:50:03.820 --> 00:50:13.020 In other words, basically, you educate the kids, and you're going to have political beliefs when they're adults, a certain way. 429 00:50:13.020 --> 00:50:18.020 And so, it's always been a tool of indoctrination. 430 00:50:18.020 --> 00:50:23.020 Just to support Paul, a porous man who founded her in Massachusetts, 431 00:50:23.020 --> 00:50:26.020 the American public school system, specifically said, 432 00:50:26.020 --> 00:50:30.020 I mean, he patented it after the Prussian system, and he said it would be in Prussia, 433 00:50:30.020 --> 00:50:35.020 they trained good soldiers, good civil servants, good citizens, to obey the state, 434 00:50:35.020 --> 00:50:38.020 and that was why America needed a public school system. 435 00:50:38.020 --> 00:50:41.020 Well, nothing to do with educating anybody, again. 436 00:50:41.020 --> 00:50:47.500 That was the point of the whole language approaches, I think, and some of the 437 00:50:48.700 --> 00:50:54.980 literatron stuff, you can't help but get the feeling that they say, well, kids are just going to spontaneously generate or acquire 438 00:50:55.540 --> 00:51:01.040 language. I mean, it's an inborn characteristic, and you just keep them exposed to language, 439 00:51:01.780 --> 00:51:04.380 printed or spoken, and they'll acquire it. 440 00:51:05.340 --> 00:51:09.380 Therefore, we have all this time in the meantime that we're not spending on teaching them to read. 441 00:51:11.020 --> 00:51:33.020 One of the big questions is, does this work? Does Judge Reese, in his remedy order, ever point to any evidence or experience which would suggest that his remedies, so-called remedies, would in fact work? 442 00:51:33.020 --> 00:51:49.020 I mean, it's one question to say whether or not we should try to help certain groups and certain problems and certain issues within the right system or the wrong system, but it's a whole different question as to whether or not it could possibly even work. 443 00:51:49.020 --> 00:52:01.020 Well, there's very few specific quotes or examples in the remedy order. They're usually in brackets, no detail, just names. 444 00:52:01.020 --> 00:52:08.460 And it stars one of them, which I'll call another one, but we can go back to that one. 445 00:52:08.460 --> 00:52:13.020 But there's, I think, there's some kind of reading and learning for life or something. 446 00:52:13.020 --> 00:52:15.820 I just named a couple of them that I'd never heard of. 447 00:52:15.820 --> 00:52:22.220 Some of this stuff sounds to me like it's related to the Chicago system, the Chicago system. 448 00:52:22.220 --> 00:52:23.260 Master learning. 449 00:52:23.260 --> 00:52:29.820 Yeah, some aspects of the remedies seem to be along those lines, and that's been a total failure. 450 00:52:29.820 --> 00:52:33.820 Yeah, but you know, the parents didn't sued. 451 00:52:33.820 --> 00:52:37.820 They sued to quit the program. 452 00:52:37.820 --> 00:52:41.820 That makes it all the more unbelievable. 453 00:52:41.820 --> 00:52:48.820 Is it possible, sort of contrary of you, I mean, since all you need for a school is a teacher, a room, desks and books, 454 00:52:48.820 --> 00:52:52.820 and it might be when anything beyond that starts to be a problem, 455 00:52:52.820 --> 00:52:57.820 is it possible that the so-called richer school districts will actually benefit from having less money, 456 00:52:57.820 --> 00:53:05.820 Less government money spent on them, and of course, the poorer districts will have more therapists and more whatever else that will destroy them faster. 457 00:53:05.820 --> 00:53:12.820 Well, I mean, I would predict that they would do at least the same or better. I mean, I would predict because... 458 00:53:12.820 --> 00:53:17.820 I mean, the way that the scores and everything really have nothing to do with the amount of money we spend. 459 00:53:17.820 --> 00:53:19.820 Right, there'd be some uncomfortableness. 460 00:53:19.820 --> 00:53:23.820 You don't have to have a building and so forth, and a teacher. 461 00:53:23.820 --> 00:53:30.520 I mean, you've also got to look, we have to also look at the whole nature-nurturer controversy and the whole beginning thing. 462 00:53:30.520 --> 00:53:38.180 I mean, you're talking about people that have been successful in their children. 463 00:53:38.180 --> 00:53:46.780 They are going to make their children successful, whether or not, you know, I mean, on average, sure not all, but on average. 464 00:53:46.780 --> 00:53:52.920 And so, I really think that it won't do that much, but you know. 465 00:53:52.920 --> 00:53:59.420 You've got this problem that, I mean, I teach these 7th graders in my semischool classes, do you want to hear this? 466 00:53:59.420 --> 00:54:02.420 Oh, no. This is going to be a tale of a story. 467 00:54:02.420 --> 00:54:06.920 You know, it's a sad thing. Most of these kids, you know, they're not brilliant, and they're not stupid. 468 00:54:06.920 --> 00:54:13.420 But none of them have the slightest bit of respect for education, for their teachers, or for their studies, or anything. 469 00:54:13.420 --> 00:54:21.920 They're not being challenged. You know, they're not in the honors classes, and they say they learn the same thing over and over again every year. 470 00:54:21.920 --> 00:54:41.080 What I would like to see, and once again this is personal, if I could play God, I would 471 00:54:41.080 --> 00:54:49.640 like to see more tracking in the terms of letting some kids go into technical training, 472 00:55:19.640 --> 00:55:24.600 on Mechanically Oriented, and we have an information society but I'm afraid too that we're also 473 00:55:24.600 --> 00:55:28.760 looking at some of the infrastructure needs that will be coming ahead and I don't mean 474 00:55:28.760 --> 00:55:33.720 that saying I want a couple hundred billion for the roads, I'm saying that there's buildings, 475 00:55:33.720 --> 00:55:42.560 there's cars, every piece of physical property has some upkeep to it and so, you know, be 476 00:55:42.560 --> 00:55:43.560 those. 477 00:55:43.560 --> 00:55:49.360 Well, I've got to plead God and myself here and bring the formal part of our brown bag 478 00:55:49.360 --> 00:55:53.680 Seminar to a close. I hope you can stay for a few minutes and answer some more 479 00:55:53.680 --> 00:55:57.000 questions. We haven't gotten around to finding out how this is going to affect 480 00:55:57.000 --> 00:56:04.360 Auburn University yet. I want to thank you for enlightening us on it. I was ready for that.