WEBVTT NOTE Crime and Drugs 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:09.000 From Studio B at the WDSU Broadcast Center in New Orleans, 6 On Your Side Live. Good evening, I'm Norman Robinson. 2 00:00:09.000 --> 00:00:19.000 We begin tonight with the problem experts say is crippling every step of the recovery in New Orleans. Drugs and crime, how the two go hand in hand and what can be done to stop it. 3 00:00:19.000 --> 00:00:23.000 6 On Your Side Live correspondent Camille Whitworth investigates. 4 00:00:23.000 --> 00:00:27.000 This is it. This is where I lay my head. 5 00:00:27.000 --> 00:00:36.000 23 year old Brian Watkins is getting treatment at the Odyssey House. He was once strung out on heavy drugs, alcohol and a life of crime. 6 00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:40.000 I had a possession of methadone, hydrocodone and cocaine. 7 00:00:40.000 --> 00:00:42.000 Were you criminal? 8 00:00:42.000 --> 00:00:43.000 Absolutely. 9 00:00:43.000 --> 00:00:45.000 What were you doing? 10 00:00:45.000 --> 00:01:01.000 Stealing. I mean, robbing. Stealing things from my mother. You know, I stole all of her jewelry. I would steal money from friends, family, everybody, anybody. 11 00:01:01.000 --> 00:01:02.000 All for the high. 12 00:01:02.000 --> 00:01:07.000 All for the high. This place here is the last hope. 13 00:01:07.000 --> 00:01:13.000 If Brian wasn't here, he says he'd be slinging dope and in and out of jail. 14 00:01:13.000 --> 00:01:16.920 I would be doing the same thing I was doing, stealing money out the cash registers from 15 00:01:16.920 --> 00:01:24.520 the bar. I'd be stealing from my parents, breaking into cars, doing whatever it took. 16 00:01:24.520 --> 00:01:29.440 Investigators tell Six on Your Side Live New Orleans is facing the biggest drug crisis 17 00:01:29.440 --> 00:01:36.680 in decades. Police tell us 90% of all crime is connected to drugs, use or sales. And right 18 00:01:36.680 --> 00:01:42.840 now there is a backlog by more than 2,000 cases. Police say they make more drug cases 19 00:01:42.840 --> 00:01:47.880 says that the district attorney's office can prosecute. That's one reason Ed Carlson, executive 20 00:01:47.880 --> 00:01:51.000 director for the Odyssey House, put out this report. 21 00:01:51.000 --> 00:01:55.720 You can't work with somebody who's out running the streets shooting dope all day. You gotta 22 00:01:55.720 --> 00:02:00.060 be able to get them in, get them clean and sober, and then you can start to focus on 23 00:02:00.060 --> 00:02:04.440 dealing with them. The six page report details ways to end violent 24 00:02:04.440 --> 00:02:10.280 crime and curb easy accessibility to alcohol and drugs. His plan starts with treatment. 25 00:02:10.280 --> 00:02:15.320 You go in, you concentrate in areas, you break up the criminal activity in there and you 26 00:02:15.320 --> 00:02:19.960 focus on pushing treatment, you have case management services, you focus on moving people 27 00:02:19.960 --> 00:02:23.160 out of their addictive problems into treatment services. 28 00:02:23.160 --> 00:02:27.800 Carlson also adds, when people are arrested for drug charges, substance abuse treatment 29 00:02:27.800 --> 00:02:29.460 should be mandatory. 30 00:02:29.460 --> 00:02:36.040 You have to focus on a strong criminal justice side, strong courts, good system, making mandating 31 00:02:36.040 --> 00:02:39.440 people into treatment or locking them up if they're not going to treatment. 32 00:02:39.440 --> 00:02:43.800 And then you have to focus on having treatment services, prevention, intervention services, 33 00:02:43.800 --> 00:02:45.280 all connected with the community. 34 00:02:45.280 --> 00:02:49.840 Investigator for the District Attorney's Office, Mike Dorena sees drug cases come through 35 00:02:49.840 --> 00:02:50.960 every day. 36 00:02:50.960 --> 00:02:54.680 This is a small part of this big picture. 37 00:02:54.680 --> 00:02:59.320 You know, just treating is not going to solve the problem. 38 00:02:59.320 --> 00:03:05.280 Dorena thinks treatment is a start and tells us solid solutions will have to go way beyond 39 00:03:05.280 --> 00:03:06.280 that. 40 00:03:06.280 --> 00:03:29.640 Drugs-related problems are spiraling out of control. That, according to a police association 41 00:03:29.640 --> 00:03:32.080 president, Lieutenant Mike Glasser. 42 00:03:32.080 --> 00:03:36.080 We have significant problems with drugs in the city. We have more drugs in the city probably 43 00:03:36.080 --> 00:03:37.080 now than we had pre-contrary. 44 00:03:37.080 --> 00:03:42.720 Lt. Glasser says crime and drugs will destroy the city and the people if something isn't 45 00:03:42.720 --> 00:03:43.720 done soon. 46 00:03:43.720 --> 00:03:48.780 Any program that helps people wean themselves off of drug abuse is a good thing. Will that 47 00:03:48.780 --> 00:03:53.120 solve the problem by itself? Absolutely not. But is it something that's necessary? I would 48 00:03:53.120 --> 00:03:54.680 say it is. 49 00:03:54.680 --> 00:04:00.640 No one agrees more than Brian and others who want to break the vicious cycle of drugs and 50 00:04:00.640 --> 00:04:01.700 crime. 51 00:04:01.700 --> 00:04:05.740 In New Orleans, Camille Whitworth, 6 On Your Side Live. 52 00:04:05.740 --> 00:04:09.900 On the 6 On Your Side Live hot seat tonight, William Renton from the DEA, Walter Block, 53 00:04:09.900 --> 00:04:14.660 professor of economics at Loyola University, and Ed Carlson, executive director of the 54 00:04:14.660 --> 00:04:19.180 Odyssey House, Louisiana. Gentlemen, thanks for joining us. We want to set the tone for 55 00:04:19.180 --> 00:04:23.580 tonight's discussion with this excerpt from an article written by Professor Block. Professor 56 00:04:23.580 --> 00:04:28.220 Block wrote, New Orleans is now undergoing an unprecedented murder rate, even for the 57 00:04:28.220 --> 00:04:34.440 The Big Easy. How can we dig our way out of this morass? The usual suspect solutions have 58 00:04:34.440 --> 00:04:39.620 all been tried, have not worked in the past and will not help us now. So let's take a 59 00:04:39.620 --> 00:04:45.220 deep breath, open our minds and consider something radical. Way off the beaten track, let us 60 00:04:45.220 --> 00:04:52.300 legalize drugs, all of them without exception, preeminently including marijuana, cocaine 61 00:04:52.300 --> 00:04:54.460 and yes, heroin. 62 00:04:54.460 --> 00:05:01.460 Professor Block, what is it about the cure that you are proposing that's not worse than the disease? 63 00:05:01.460 --> 00:05:06.460 I don't think anything is not worse than the disease. I think there's no real downside. 64 00:05:06.460 --> 00:05:10.460 I think the only thing is an upside. We'll reduce the murder rate rapidly. 65 00:05:10.460 --> 00:05:19.460 We will allow police to stop victim crimes as opposed to victimless crimes, people putting poisons into their own bodies. 66 00:05:19.460 --> 00:05:34.460 And when it's legalized the prices will come down and people will no longer have to steal, rob and commit mayhem in order to promote their habits or feed their habits because the price will be so low they won't have to steal. 67 00:05:34.460 --> 00:05:37.460 No one has to steal in order to get booze. 68 00:05:37.460 --> 00:05:47.460 We had a situation with prohibition of alcohol and we saw that people were being shot like flies in the street. 69 00:05:47.460 --> 00:06:08.460 Mr. Renton, as a person, a law enforcement officer with the Department of Drug Enforcement, the EA, what do you see as an answer or reaction to what Professor Block is proposing? 70 00:06:08.460 --> 00:06:11.460 I think Professor Block's solution is absolutely ludicrous. 71 00:06:11.460 --> 00:06:18.460 We have a lot of problems in this city. We have serious problems. We have serious problems in this nation. Drugs happen to be one of them. 72 00:06:18.460 --> 00:06:28.460 If Professor Block's solution is implemented and we sell drugs in stores, I would guess that there's poor people in the city that can't buy food and they're on federal subsistence. 73 00:06:28.460 --> 00:06:37.460 I don't think any taxpayer regrets paying taxes to allow people that are absolutely starving or desperate straits to purchase food and to feed themselves. 74 00:06:37.460 --> 00:06:59.460 So you see crime worsening in the event that drugs are legalized? 75 00:06:59.460 --> 00:07:01.460 What about that, Mr. Carlson? 76 00:07:01.460 --> 00:07:08.460 I'm afraid I have to agree. All the studies actually show by legalizing drugs, what happens is you lose your motivation towards treatment. 77 00:07:08.460 --> 00:07:15.460 A lot of the problems associated with it has to do with the fact that once a person is addicted, regardless of what the problems and issues, 78 00:07:15.460 --> 00:07:20.460 and there are plenty of people out there who steal money for alcohol just because alcohol is legal. 79 00:07:20.460 --> 00:07:25.460 Once a person becomes addicted, they lose their ability to be able to choose whether or not they can use that substance. 80 00:07:25.460 --> 00:07:36.960 So the point of reference is even some of the governments in various different places, they had looked at trying to actually even giving people the drugs as a way of dealing with it. 81 00:07:36.960 --> 00:07:43.960 But what happens is you create this underclass population that becomes addicted without any motivation towards moving them towards treatment. 82 00:07:43.960 --> 00:07:45.460 Professor Block. 83 00:07:45.460 --> 00:07:51.460 Let me just say that I don't favor the use of drugs. I oppose them. I'm talking about the legalization of them. 84 00:07:51.460 --> 00:07:57.460 The logical implication of what these people on either side of me are saying is that we should go back to the prohibition of alcohol. 85 00:07:57.460 --> 00:08:00.460 And yet, surely we wouldn't want to do that. 86 00:08:00.460 --> 00:08:10.460 Now, with regard to the case in England and Amsterdam, the reason that these experiments, quasi-experiments, it wasn't really full legalization, but quasi-legalization failed, 87 00:08:10.460 --> 00:08:13.460 is because they didn't realize how many addicts they had. 88 00:08:13.460 --> 00:08:19.460 Many more addicts came out of the, under the rocks or wherever they were, so they had a statistical undercount. 89 00:08:19.460 --> 00:08:20.960 Do we know how many addicts we have? 90 00:08:20.960 --> 00:08:22.460 No, I don't think we have good data. 91 00:08:22.460 --> 00:08:24.460 So how would we be different? 92 00:08:24.460 --> 00:08:26.160 How would the outcome for us be different? 93 00:08:26.160 --> 00:08:27.660 Well, the outcome there wasn't bad. 94 00:08:27.660 --> 00:08:31.360 It's not that there were new addicts, it's that there was a severe undercount. 95 00:08:31.360 --> 00:08:36.160 As well, people from India, Australia and other places in the British dominions came to England 96 00:08:36.160 --> 00:08:40.160 to take advantage of this very humane policy. 97 00:08:40.160 --> 00:08:41.960 So I don't think that these were a failure. 98 00:08:41.960 --> 00:08:45.960 But the point is right now, this drug law is a very racist law. 99 00:08:45.960 --> 00:08:53.960 First of all, the Harrison Nauticotics Act was implemented as an anti-Chinese measure in 1914 because the Chinese were using opium. 100 00:08:53.960 --> 00:08:56.960 I thought it was an anti-Mexican. 101 00:08:56.960 --> 00:09:07.960 No, anti-Chinese in 1914. Right now it's anti-black in effect because blacks are disproportionately represented among those who are being killed in drug wars and also those in jail. 102 00:09:07.960 --> 00:09:14.960 I think from 60 to 70 percent of all people now in prison are in prison related to drug laws. 103 00:09:14.960 --> 00:09:17.960 Mr. Renton, are we winning the war on drugs? 104 00:09:17.960 --> 00:09:22.960 Some significant recent studies indicate that drug use amongst teenagers has decreased. 105 00:09:22.960 --> 00:09:24.960 We're doing a lot of things. 106 00:09:24.960 --> 00:09:28.960 I agree with Professor Block that we will never be able to arrest ourselves out of the drug. 107 00:09:28.960 --> 00:09:31.960 We won't be able to incarcerate everybody who abuses drugs. 108 00:09:31.960 --> 00:09:37.960 For those that think that people who merely possess or use drugs are disproportionately in prison, that's a fallacy. 109 00:09:37.960 --> 00:09:39.960 It's absolutely incorrect. 110 00:09:39.960 --> 00:09:43.960 It's very difficult to go to prison if you possess drugs with the intent of using them. 111 00:09:43.960 --> 00:10:13.960 That's a misdemeanor in federal courts. There's a number of federal laws that would prohibit what Mr. Block is suggesting, and obviously you wouldn't be able to just take New Orleans and decide that we're going to legalize it here, but, Norman, as you're well aware, we have serious problems in the city, drug abuses amongst them, the people that would be using drugs, the underclass that we talked about that would be created, what would they do? What could they possibly do? We have undereducated kids that have absolutely no social skills, no marketable skills, no chance of making a living, 112 00:10:13.960 --> 00:10:16.240 and would make them wards of their own addiction. 113 00:10:16.240 --> 00:10:17.760 And the drugs are making it worse. 114 00:10:17.760 --> 00:10:20.280 Absolutely, the drugs are making it worse. 115 00:10:20.280 --> 00:10:22.440 But to say let's legalize drugs, anybody that 116 00:10:22.440 --> 00:10:24.760 credibly studies drug legalization 117 00:10:24.760 --> 00:10:27.640 would have to admit that initially, at least initially, 118 00:10:27.640 --> 00:10:29.680 you'd have a spike in use. 119 00:10:29.680 --> 00:10:31.600 I disagree with Professor Block saying 120 00:10:31.600 --> 00:10:33.600 that there was addicts that came out the woodwork. 121 00:10:33.600 --> 00:10:36.240 You would create new addicts, you'd create new abusers. 122 00:10:36.240 --> 00:10:38.320 And I like that when we discuss legalization, 123 00:10:38.320 --> 00:10:41.320 I love to use the United Negro College Fund's commercial. 124 00:10:41.320 --> 00:10:43.720 How many mines in the city of New Orleans of young people 125 00:10:43.720 --> 00:10:55.720 And Mr. Carlson, what are we doing about treatment? If we are serious about this drug problem and doing something about it, why don't we invest more in prevention and treatment? 126 00:10:55.720 --> 00:11:06.720 Well, that's my question. The thing is, there are many cities around the country that have been able to utilize and create coherent systems of care and have a huge impact on the drug problem in their community. 127 00:11:06.720 --> 00:11:18.720 One of the things that we need to do is we need to work, have law enforcement working a lot closer with substance abuse treatment programs, prevention, intervention, and the community as a whole in a coherent system that could help to deal with the problem. 128 00:11:18.720 --> 00:11:29.720 A good example of this is San Francisco. San Francisco and New Orleans have a lot of things in common. One of the things they have in common is that they have a kind of laissez-faire attitude towards substance abuse, okay, drugs and alcohol. 129 00:11:29.720 --> 00:11:34.840 and Alcohol. During the 60s, San Francisco had a lot of problems with drugs, mainly because 130 00:11:34.840 --> 00:11:38.960 of the heyday of the hippie days. In the 70s, they experienced high amounts of crime. What 131 00:11:38.960 --> 00:11:44.480 they did was they took a multi-tier approach. They focused on treatment, intervention, prevention 132 00:11:44.480 --> 00:11:48.720 and working closely in the criminal justice system and the community as a whole. Now, as 133 00:11:48.720 --> 00:11:54.120 an example, last year, they have over 670,000 people living in their city. They only had 134 00:11:54.120 --> 00:11:59.400 96 murders in the city. If we could focus on looking at models that are already being 135 00:11:59.400 --> 00:12:13.400 Professor Block, is this all pie in the sky to you? 136 00:12:13.400 --> 00:12:20.400 Well, no, I think that he's making a reasonable point, but first let me just say that both of these opponents of mine on either side of me, 137 00:12:20.400 --> 00:12:22.400 I guess I was put in the middle because I'm the prettiest here. 138 00:12:22.400 --> 00:12:23.400 Well, yes, of course. 139 00:12:23.400 --> 00:12:36.400 Both of them are ducking my question. My question is, would you favor going back to the prohibition of alcohol? Now, the point with regards to the Odyssey House, they're doing a great job, but so is narcotics anonymous and alcoholics anonymous. 140 00:12:36.400 --> 00:12:49.400 The point is that if we legalize it, we turn it from both a social and a medical problem to just a medical problem, where my colleague over here can perhaps help out, and my colleague over here can stop real crimes instead of stopping victimless crimes. 141 00:12:49.400 --> 00:13:00.400 and Victimless Crimes. Now, he says, yes, we're winning or we're not winning. Look, not only are we not winning, but we can't win, because every time we start to win, we set the seeds of our own destruction of the winning. 142 00:13:00.400 --> 00:13:13.400 For example, every time they interject some drugs, the supply curve, if I can use the economic terminology, shifts to the left. There's less drugs available, which means the prices go higher and the profits go high. 143 00:13:13.400 --> 00:13:15.400 Mr. Renton, you get the last word, 30 seconds. 144 00:13:15.400 --> 00:13:18.800 The very success breeds failure, so they can't win. 145 00:13:18.800 --> 00:13:19.800 Mr. Winn. 146 00:13:19.800 --> 00:13:24.320 I'm not for going back and criminalizing alcohol, but we have a number of social problems related 147 00:13:24.320 --> 00:13:30.520 to alcohol abuse, drunken driving, most people say we ought to legalize marijuana, most proponents 148 00:13:30.520 --> 00:13:33.120 of drug legalization say, let's start with marijuana. 149 00:13:33.120 --> 00:13:37.680 There's a significant problem here with marijuana being used in driving and accidents killing 150 00:13:37.680 --> 00:13:38.680 people. 151 00:13:38.680 --> 00:13:41.960 I mean, under Mr. Block's theory, anything that we can't control, we ought to legalize, 152 00:13:41.960 --> 00:13:45.200 we could legalize burglaries, but there's consequences to that. 153 00:13:45.200 --> 00:13:49.640 Thank you, gentlemen. This discussion will obviously go forward. Mr. Renton, Professor 154 00:13:49.640 --> 00:13:52.140 Block and Mr. Carlson, thank you for being here. 155 00:13:53.140 --> 00:13:53.640 You're very welcome.