WEBVTT NOTE An Interview with Ralph Raico 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:08.080 We're having today, for the Mises Institute Oral History Project, we're interviewing the 2 00:00:08.880 --> 00:00:10.880 distinguished historian of 3 00:00:10.920 --> 00:00:14.840 classical liberalism, Ralph Reiko, who was the 4 00:00:16.320 --> 00:00:20.060 closest associate of Murray Rothbard, and 5 00:00:21.760 --> 00:00:29.760 we're going to ask him a number of questions about his early life and career. And Ralph, I'd like to start off 6 00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:39.000 By asking, I believe you were born in the Bronx. Can you tell us something about what it was like growing up there? 7 00:00:39.000 --> 00:00:50.000 Well, no, I wasn't born in the Bronx. I was born in what was then Italian Harlem, now Spanish Harlem. 8 00:00:50.000 --> 00:00:58.000 And David, you must know this, the Archbishop Usher in the 17th century? 9 00:00:58.000 --> 00:00:59.000 Oh, yes. 10 00:00:59.000 --> 00:01:08.800 Right. He dated the creation of the world from October 23rd, 4004 BC. Well, I don't 11 00:01:08.800 --> 00:01:15.120 know about the 4004 BC, but October 23rd, I think, is very auspicious. I was born on 12 00:01:15.120 --> 00:01:32.160 October 23, 1936, on 107th Street in Italian Harlem. But very soon my parents made a couple 13 00:01:32.160 --> 00:01:41.160 of real good decisions. My Italian relatives were fine people, basically working people, 14 00:01:41.160 --> 00:01:46.120 People, some of them on small shops, but very warm-hearted people. 15 00:01:46.120 --> 00:01:52.640 But, nonetheless, when I was very young, we moved up to the Bronx, and that was a whole 16 00:01:52.640 --> 00:01:53.640 different world. 17 00:01:53.640 --> 00:02:01.920 The first good thing my parents did was put me in the public schools, not parochial schools. 18 00:02:01.920 --> 00:02:09.680 I don't think I would have been very happy with those, being with those tough Irish kids 19 00:02:09.680 --> 00:02:23.560 I was much better being in the public schools where everybody was Jewish, not some of the 20 00:02:23.560 --> 00:02:35.800 old tenured teachers who were Irish or German, but all my friends were Jewish. 21 00:02:35.800 --> 00:02:39.080 We lived in the Bronx also. 22 00:02:39.080 --> 00:02:40.440 In my apartment building, 23 00:02:42.200 --> 00:02:44.160 there was only one other non-Jewish family. 24 00:02:44.160 --> 00:02:47.360 There was the Greeks, the Athos family next door, 25 00:02:47.360 --> 00:02:52.360 very nice people, but everybody else was Jewish. 26 00:02:54.120 --> 00:02:56.620 Down on the fourth floor, 27 00:02:58.520 --> 00:03:03.680 this is a bit of an interesting anecdote. 28 00:03:03.680 --> 00:03:09.080 Most of them were just FDR lovers, but there were some Norman Thomas socialists sitting 29 00:03:09.080 --> 00:03:16.600 on the fourth floor in 4B, Mrs. Yerovitz, who was a communist. Her husband belonged 30 00:03:16.600 --> 00:03:25.600 to the Furriers Union. And very early on, in my early teens, I started to get, as I'll 31 00:03:25.600 --> 00:03:51.600 and I also wanted to spread my views so I sent a letter to I think it was the Daily News where I said that Joseph Stalin had been a bank robber, well everybody knows that, he was collecting funds for the Bolsheviks and the Corpuses in Georgia. 32 00:03:51.600 --> 00:04:00.800 So my mother showed this around, she led her to the editor, wonderful and so on, but Mrs. 33 00:04:00.800 --> 00:04:08.560 Shervitz got very angry, and she said, you know, Stalin could sue you for that. 34 00:04:08.560 --> 00:04:09.560 And I panicked. 35 00:04:09.560 --> 00:04:14.560 If Stalin sues me, my father's going to kill me. 36 00:04:14.560 --> 00:04:19.560 How am I going to get an attorney? 37 00:04:19.560 --> 00:04:29.000 Well, it turned out Stalin didn't sue me, but this is an indication, as I say, most 38 00:04:29.000 --> 00:04:42.320 of them were just Roosevelt lovers, but there were some really quite nice people, and so 39 00:04:42.320 --> 00:04:52.320 Growing up in the Bronx, yes, all of my friends, some of them were real smart. In junior high, 40 00:04:52.320 --> 00:05:02.320 my best friend was Leon Levy. I don't know what age you are, maybe 14 or something. Anyway, 41 00:05:02.320 --> 00:05:10.320 in his room, behind his desk, he had the periodic table of the elements. He was very much into 42 00:05:10.320 --> 00:05:16.400 Chemistry, turned out to be, as I learned in later years, a geologist down in Texas. 43 00:05:16.400 --> 00:05:21.400 But very smart kids, some of them were. 44 00:05:21.400 --> 00:05:30.400 Now, well, let's talk about my political influences and so on. 45 00:05:30.400 --> 00:05:37.920 My father used to bring home the Journal American, a big Hearst newspaper. 46 00:05:37.920 --> 00:05:50.520 And we also saw the Daily News. They had, in those days, great isolationist Washington 47 00:05:50.520 --> 00:05:59.600 correspondent, John O'Donnell, and got the Daily Mirror. So anyway, pretty much right-wing. 48 00:05:59.600 --> 00:06:07.440 And on the radio, I started to listen to Fulton Lewis, Jr. He had a 15-minute program every 49 00:06:07.440 --> 00:06:19.440 Weekday and very strongly anti-communist. So that was basically my orientation. And somehow, 50 00:06:19.440 --> 00:06:29.680 I forget how, I heard about Hayek's Road to Serfdom. So I read that and that opened up a lot of 51 00:06:29.680 --> 00:06:58.680 In 1952, I was a head of students for Taft in New York City. 52 00:06:58.680 --> 00:07:08.680 It was not a large organization, but one thing that came of it was that one day at our headquarters, 53 00:07:08.680 --> 00:07:15.680 I forget some hotel downtown, the General Taft headquarters, Leonard Ligio showed up, 54 00:07:15.680 --> 00:07:23.680 and that was the start of a friendship that goes on to this day. Leonard has been very influential in my life. 55 00:07:23.680 --> 00:07:41.680 and also I met George Reisman because George had set up a bridge table outside of the public library on 42nd Street collecting signatures and distributing pamphlets and leaflets for Taft. 56 00:07:41.680 --> 00:07:49.680 So I went over to it one time and there was something about the way I came over because the first thing that George said to me was, 57 00:07:49.680 --> 00:08:05.920 We became good friends and good friends at Bronx Science. 58 00:08:05.920 --> 00:08:14.240 Leonard Ligia went on to college in Georgetown, but George and I were buddies for quite a 59 00:08:14.240 --> 00:08:16.120 while. 60 00:08:16.120 --> 00:08:28.120 And then I was heavily into my letter writing period, so I wrote a letter to just a little 61 00:08:28.120 --> 00:08:34.680 magazine that I think was put out by the Chamber of Commerce called USA. 62 00:08:34.680 --> 00:08:40.800 And I mentioned, because George had introduced me to Mises, George had read Human Action 63 00:08:40.800 --> 00:08:44.480 by that time, whenever he was 14, 15 or something. 64 00:08:44.480 --> 00:08:51.360 and as I mentioned Mises and somehow, they must have a clipping service or something, 65 00:08:51.360 --> 00:08:58.560 they found out about this up at Fee, at the Foundation for Economic Education. 66 00:08:58.560 --> 00:09:05.480 And I got a letter from them and they invited me and I think I mentioned Druid also to come 67 00:09:05.480 --> 00:09:14.060 came up and we were sort of poster boys at their annual Board of Directors or Board of 68 00:09:14.060 --> 00:09:15.060 Trustees meeting. 69 00:09:15.060 --> 00:09:27.560 There were, so I met, I was pretty impressed, some big businessmen, there was Jasper Crane 70 00:09:27.560 --> 00:09:39.960 from DuPont, I think, and some others, but also, oh, and I met the people of at Fee in 71 00:09:39.960 --> 00:09:46.600 those days, a very different organization I think now, but there was Leonard Reed, there 72 00:09:46.600 --> 00:09:55.840 was Paul Perot, Ivan Beerly, F. A. Harper. F. A. Harper was the first one I'd ever come 73 00:09:55.840 --> 00:10:09.840 Robert M. McCross, who had Murray's point of view, which I guess I'll bring up in a few minutes, let's call it the Totally Voluntary Society, to get my drift. 74 00:10:09.840 --> 00:10:22.000 And F. A. Hopper was universally known as Baldi Hopper, not because he was bald. His 75 00:10:22.000 --> 00:10:31.520 brother was bald. For some reason, he was called Baldi. Well, one of the mysteries. 76 00:10:31.520 --> 00:10:42.160 And the great thing that happened was that Leonard Reed or somebody suggested or sent 77 00:10:42.160 --> 00:10:53.960 a letter to Ludwig von Mises. Now, Eugen and I, a couple of years before that, had found 78 00:10:53.960 --> 00:10:59.520 out where Mises lived. Did I ever tell you this? It's one of the most embarrassing things 79 00:10:59.520 --> 00:11:00.520 that ever happened. 80 00:11:00.520 --> 00:11:25.520 Yeah, and we went up to meet his apartment. He came to the door, he was dressed in a tuxedo except for his bow tie, and we asked him whether he wanted to buy a subscription to the Freeman, which the fee was putting out. 81 00:11:25.520 --> 00:11:43.520 And he said, the Freeman? I already have the Freeman. And he closed the door. And George and I went out of the apartment. We didn't make any eye contact. And that was that. 82 00:11:43.520 --> 00:11:59.520 At this time, we were invited guests at the Mises seminar at NYU, and Mises, of course, was not a tenured professor at NYU. 83 00:11:59.520 --> 00:12:11.520 All they did was give him the room. His salary was paid by the Volcker Fund, just as with Hayek, never a tenured professor in the economics department. 84 00:12:11.520 --> 00:12:17.520 His salary was paid by outside organizations also. 85 00:12:17.520 --> 00:12:25.520 Sometimes I've given some of my talks to student groups at the Mises Institute, 86 00:12:25.520 --> 00:12:31.520 ask them, you know your professors, you know about professors. 87 00:12:31.520 --> 00:12:37.520 Can you imagine Hayek and Mises not being tenured? 88 00:12:37.520 --> 00:12:40.520 And they look a little stunned. 89 00:12:40.520 --> 00:12:52.560 Well, down at the Mises seminar met a lot of people and the main one was Murray Rothbard. 90 00:12:52.560 --> 00:13:00.400 One question I had was, it appears that although the dominant culture when you were growing 91 00:13:00.400 --> 00:13:07.040 up, it was very left-wing, you started being interested in more classical, liberal and 92 00:13:07.040 --> 00:13:11.140 and conservative views quite early on. 93 00:13:11.140 --> 00:13:16.680 What do you think accounted for your reaction against the predominant views? 94 00:13:16.680 --> 00:13:27.000 As I say, the Jewish subculture, or basically the culture in New York and in the Bronx in 95 00:13:27.000 --> 00:13:34.560 those days, was quite left-wing, but neither my family. 96 00:13:34.560 --> 00:13:44.560 My grandfather, for one, was a Republican, I think because his best years were in the 97 00:13:44.560 --> 00:13:55.200 business-wise, were in the 20s, but anyway, there were no leftists in my own family, so 98 00:13:55.200 --> 00:14:01.680 I didn't get that, I was sort of immunized against that. 99 00:14:01.680 --> 00:14:13.680 and all of these other resources, the papers I read and the radio broadcasts and so on. 100 00:14:13.680 --> 00:14:21.680 But now that meeting with Murray at the Mises seminar was decisive. 101 00:14:21.680 --> 00:14:27.680 I mean, Murray is the greatest intellectual influence in my life. 102 00:14:27.680 --> 00:14:42.680 And we went out for coffee afterwards, and I started to get an idea that Murray was a—but you really couldn't call him a conservative, or what is he exactly? 103 00:14:42.680 --> 00:14:52.680 We expressed our appreciation of Mises, and Murray said, ah yes, Mises is a great man, greatest economist of all time. 104 00:14:52.680 --> 00:15:01.680 But some of us refer to, as far as his political views go, some of us refer to him as being a member of the non-communist left. 105 00:15:01.680 --> 00:15:14.680 So I got the idea that this guy is somebody really different and special and extremely interesting. 106 00:15:14.680 --> 00:15:26.680 He really was. Well, you guys knew Murray to an extent, you know what I'm talking about. 107 00:15:26.680 --> 00:15:32.680 He was fantastically well-read. His library, you know, thousands and thousands of books. 108 00:15:32.680 --> 00:15:36.680 I think it's part of the library down in Auburn now, isn't it? 109 00:15:36.680 --> 00:15:37.680 Yes, it is. 110 00:15:37.680 --> 00:15:53.680 Yes, and his wife, Joey, she was his absolutely perfect wife and she was so generous as a 111 00:15:53.680 --> 00:15:56.400 hostess to us. 112 00:15:56.400 --> 00:16:04.680 We spent endless nights up to, Joey would finally go to bed, but up to two, three o'clock 113 00:16:04.680 --> 00:16:16.680 In the morning, talking about everything, Murray would jump up and get one of his books and read us a passage from it. 114 00:16:16.680 --> 00:16:24.680 He read us a lot of Mencken. By the way, that's the first time I'd ever come across Mencken. 115 00:16:24.680 --> 00:16:41.680 We went to movies together. Arthur had mentioned that it wasn't just Georgian and me, but Leonard Litchey also very often came around. 116 00:16:41.680 --> 00:16:50.680 A few other people, Bob Hessen for a while, and we would do other things, go to movies, play board games. 117 00:16:50.680 --> 00:17:01.680 My favorite board game was Risk. It was taking over, you had to try to take over the world. 118 00:17:01.680 --> 00:17:14.680 Murray was constantly giving advice to other players, really disinformation. 119 00:17:14.680 --> 00:17:44.640 How to Attack Someone Else, and so on, but also Ron Hamoway was an important part of the group, and so we spent a lot of time socializing all the time, and as I say, Jerry was a terrific hostess, typical of us, or at least me, 120 00:17:44.680 --> 00:17:57.680 Being a kid and old, never crossed my mind to bring a bottle of wine or anything. But, you know, water off the ducks, back to them. 121 00:17:57.680 --> 00:18:10.100 But this was what we call the Circle Bastiat. I see that on the Mises org web page, Danny 122 00:18:10.100 --> 00:18:19.240 Sencha has a column where he talks, reuses the phrase Circle Bastiat. By the way, that's 123 00:18:19.240 --> 00:18:26.760 one of the few pictures, one of the few photos, if anybody ever bothers to visit that website 124 00:18:26.760 --> 00:18:36.040 that the logo is one of the few photos that was ever taken of all of us until we took 125 00:18:36.040 --> 00:18:42.400 it. And if anybody wonders, the person on the extreme right there, whose face is half 126 00:18:42.400 --> 00:18:49.480 cut off, is Leonard, because he was the tallest of us. She was a great woman, not the greatest 127 00:18:49.480 --> 00:19:04.360 Let's see now, oh yeah, when George and I entered college, Columbia, I was at City College, 128 00:19:04.360 --> 00:19:14.760 and we started a very intensive study of German, of the German language. You know that Hans 129 00:19:14.760 --> 00:19:36.760 So Hoppe gets a kick out of this. You know this P. J. O. Rourke? He's a neocon, he's very popular at the Cato Institute, and he said that, he's written that the German is a language that's designed to enable you to spit into the face of the person you're talking to. 130 00:19:36.760 --> 00:19:49.840 Hans thought that was funny, but we studied a German master, I would say, because right 131 00:19:49.840 --> 00:20:01.340 away George got a grant from the Volper Fund to translate Mises' book on epistemological 132 00:20:01.340 --> 00:20:10.340 No Problems of Economics, and also another history book that Mises thought was important. 133 00:20:10.340 --> 00:20:15.340 And I got a grant to translate Mises' book on liberalism. 134 00:20:15.340 --> 00:20:20.340 And that book has gone by a number of different titles. 135 00:20:20.340 --> 00:20:27.340 It was finally published, I think, in 67, but it's never been out of print. 136 00:20:27.340 --> 00:20:38.340 and that got me into a closer relationship with Mises because he talked over his book from time to time. 137 00:20:38.340 --> 00:20:53.340 And also it was a feather in my cap when I started applying for positions as a college instructor. 138 00:20:53.340 --> 00:21:02.940 But, meanwhile, a couple of things happened while I was in grad school in Chicago. 139 00:21:02.940 --> 00:21:15.260 We set up a magazine called New Individualist Review, NIR, and Friedman was a faculty advisor. 140 00:21:15.260 --> 00:21:24.860 We had a couple of other faculty advisors, Ben Rogge from Wabash, Stigler, and we didn't 141 00:21:24.860 --> 00:21:29.380 need very much money, but Friedman was able to raise whatever he needed amongst some business 142 00:21:29.380 --> 00:21:30.380 men in Chicago. 143 00:21:30.380 --> 00:21:33.220 It was very easy for him. 144 00:21:33.220 --> 00:21:38.620 And there was about a four or five year run of the magazine. 145 00:21:38.620 --> 00:21:48.980 I see that Liberty Fund has brought up the copyright to the magazine, but now it's available 146 00:21:48.980 --> 00:21:53.020 in hardcover and available from Liberty Fund. 147 00:21:53.020 --> 00:22:00.740 We got some very good articles, well the first article, the first issue was by Friedman, 148 00:22:00.740 --> 00:22:06.060 Capitalism and Freedom, became then the name of a book of his. 149 00:22:06.060 --> 00:22:16.300 And Hayek wrote for us, I see that Armand Alshon has just passed away. Alshon wrote 150 00:22:16.300 --> 00:22:27.380 for StemSets, many other people. And so that was something that I was involved with very 151 00:22:27.380 --> 00:22:33.980 closely while in grad school. Another thing that happened was back in New 152 00:22:33.980 --> 00:22:43.980 of Europe, and that was the split between Murray and Ayn Rand. I'd met Ayn a few 153 00:22:43.980 --> 00:22:58.980 times at her apartment just through Murray. She was looking to groom as a member of what 154 00:22:58.980 --> 00:23:06.940 What They Called the Collective, a kind of Randian joke, as good a joke as the Randians 155 00:23:06.940 --> 00:23:28.740 of America, and Murray was very enthusiastic about Ayn, and Ayn was a brilliant woman, 156 00:23:28.740 --> 00:23:32.740 The most brilliant woman I've ever met, one of the most brilliant people. 157 00:23:32.740 --> 00:23:41.740 However, she was, I would say, seduced or corrupted by her later followers. 158 00:23:41.740 --> 00:23:49.740 In her earlier career, her friends were people like Henry Haslip, Leonard Reed, Roswolda Lane, 159 00:23:49.740 --> 00:23:55.740 people who were, to some degree anyway, her equal. 160 00:23:55.740 --> 00:24:05.980 Afterwards, after Found Head came out, I think, she gathered together, or they gathered around 161 00:24:05.980 --> 00:24:16.900 her a group of Canadians, Nathaniel Brandon, his wife, Barbara Brandon, Peacoff, the people 162 00:24:16.900 --> 00:24:45.900 The people who run the Ayn Rand Institute now, that is, Picoff, and they were simply gushing acolytes, so she didn't hang out with her former friends, and she was surrounded by these people, and I think that that's what finally led to bad things in her life. 163 00:24:46.900 --> 00:24:47.900 and Their Life. 164 00:24:47.900 --> 00:24:58.980 For one thing, it led to this ridiculous affair with Nathaniel Brandon, who afterwards, true 165 00:24:58.980 --> 00:25:09.260 to his inner self and his inner Tad, he downplayed by saying that he was old enough to be his 166 00:25:09.260 --> 00:25:10.260 mother. 167 00:25:10.260 --> 00:25:15.460 So naturally, he had to break off and go with a younger woman. 168 00:25:15.460 --> 00:25:31.460 That's the way those people were, but I remember one time, there was one time when I came down to the Mises seminar and it was really very heartwarming. 169 00:25:31.460 --> 00:25:41.460 Mises was giving one of his lectures and then he started talking about the importance of spreading our ideas through literature 170 00:25:41.460 --> 00:25:49.460 And he said, and I mention this because we have in our company tonight, a great novelist who has, 171 00:25:49.460 --> 00:25:58.460 Apples had come out by that time, who has in fact spread her ideas to many, many thousands of people. 172 00:25:58.460 --> 00:26:05.460 And I was sitting right next to Ein and she was, oh, smile, she was glowing. She loved flattery. 173 00:26:05.460 --> 00:26:23.460 He was like a little girl, really. And it was very sweet to see. But Murray finally had to break with Brandon, the arrogance of those people. 174 00:26:23.460 --> 00:26:33.460 Some of us were in what was referred to as therapy by Brandon. He was a psychotherapist. 175 00:26:33.460 --> 00:26:37.460 They had a degree in education, I think. 176 00:26:37.460 --> 00:26:44.460 Anyway, so we talked about personal things. 177 00:26:44.460 --> 00:26:53.460 I had the suspicion that actually Brandon was communicating some of these personal things to Ein and perhaps to others, 178 00:26:53.460 --> 00:26:57.460 but I never actually found out about that. 179 00:26:57.460 --> 00:27:03.460 But Brandon confronted Murray one time and said that he had to divorce Joey. 180 00:27:03.460 --> 00:27:06.460 Why did he have to divorce Joey? 181 00:27:06.460 --> 00:27:13.460 Well, it's obvious. She's a Christian. She's a mystic. 182 00:27:13.460 --> 00:27:21.460 She was a loving woman. She was a very intelligent woman, a very bright woman. 183 00:27:21.460 --> 00:27:30.460 and there was a lot of Murray's life and he was not going to give her up for a group of bozos. 184 00:27:30.460 --> 00:27:42.460 So that was then that and we all had to take our stand either with Murray or with the Randians 185 00:27:42.460 --> 00:27:53.540 and George Reespin and Bob Hesson went with the Randians and I and the others in the Circo 186 00:27:53.540 --> 00:28:06.540 Bastiat, Ron Hamerway and Leonard went with Murray, by the way those times when we went 187 00:28:06.540 --> 00:28:14.500 up to Einstein's place to chat with her and converse with her. 188 00:28:14.500 --> 00:28:22.980 I remember one time he went into some big thing about the need for having a basis in 189 00:28:22.980 --> 00:28:28.260 metaphysics and epistemology and so on before you could argue that the post office should 190 00:28:28.260 --> 00:28:37.260 be privatized, and Leonard just went to sleep, that was it, survival mechanism he had. 191 00:28:37.260 --> 00:28:44.260 Her husband, Frank O'Connor, was the best of, as far as a human being goes, was the 192 00:28:44.260 --> 00:28:47.260 best of the group. 193 00:28:47.260 --> 00:29:02.260 He did some amateur painting, and some of his paintings and drawings were up on the wall in their apartment. 194 00:29:02.260 --> 00:29:29.260 And one of their, one of the Randroids, who was an art history major or something, had verbally, at one point, said that this particular sketch, this watercolor by Frank, reminds her of the young Michelangelo, and that's the kind of people they were. 195 00:29:29.260 --> 00:29:37.260 Well, I was looking disordered from that point of view, and Frank was there, and I said, 196 00:29:37.260 --> 00:29:40.260 Frank, is there something wrong with the perspective? 197 00:29:40.260 --> 00:29:44.260 Oh, by the way, of course, it was skyscrapers. 198 00:29:44.260 --> 00:29:48.260 I forgot to mention that. 199 00:29:48.260 --> 00:29:50.260 And so I said, is there something wrong with it? 200 00:29:50.260 --> 00:29:54.260 And he said, yeah, there probably is. 201 00:29:54.260 --> 00:29:56.260 He was a very easygoing guy. 202 00:29:56.260 --> 00:29:58.980 That's the way he got along with Hine, I think. 203 00:30:00.100 --> 00:30:00.940 He loved her. 204 00:30:01.900 --> 00:30:04.500 They met out in Hollywood, I think, 205 00:30:04.500 --> 00:30:06.780 when she was a wardrobe consultant. 206 00:30:06.780 --> 00:30:08.740 I think he was a part-time actor. 207 00:30:08.740 --> 00:30:13.020 He'd been very good-looking when he was a young man. 208 00:30:13.020 --> 00:30:16.460 And I think that was a model of her heroes 209 00:30:16.460 --> 00:30:20.860 in her novels. 210 00:30:20.860 --> 00:30:25.980 They were all handsome-looking, 211 00:30:25.980 --> 00:30:36.860 wasp types. But anyway, by that time, when the split with the Randians came, I was in 212 00:30:36.860 --> 00:30:45.980 Chicago. So I was back in Chicago. So it didn't really affect me. 213 00:30:45.980 --> 00:30:49.780 Can you say something about Hayek and your relationship with him at Chicago? 214 00:30:49.780 --> 00:30:55.260 Oh, yeah. Yeah, sure. Yeah, he was the head of my dissertation committee, so I saw him 215 00:30:55.260 --> 00:31:02.420 from Time to Time, and also I had some tutorials with him that the Committee on Social Thought 216 00:31:02.420 --> 00:31:09.820 had a system that they called having tutorials on particular books with particular members 217 00:31:09.820 --> 00:31:12.820 of their staff. 218 00:31:12.820 --> 00:31:18.580 But Hayek once frankly told me the only reason he taught was so that he could have an income 219 00:31:18.580 --> 00:31:20.580 to do his research. 220 00:31:20.580 --> 00:31:31.580 He had very little interest in teaching or really very little interest in students. 221 00:31:31.580 --> 00:31:45.340 He was always polite, super polite, a gentleman, a aristocrat, really, and of course an immensely 222 00:31:45.340 --> 00:31:53.540 A learned man, I have disagreements with him on the history of thought and other issues, 223 00:31:53.540 --> 00:31:57.500 but it doesn't take away the least of his greatness. 224 00:31:57.500 --> 00:32:06.220 Mises, on the other hand, loved students, that's why he would go out for coffee very 225 00:32:06.220 --> 00:32:09.220 often afterwards with them. 226 00:32:09.220 --> 00:32:15.220 Well, he did a lot of particular students, students who were bright and who were interested in his work. 227 00:32:15.220 --> 00:32:21.220 And he was always extremely friendly, always extremely accessible. 228 00:32:21.220 --> 00:32:35.220 He had anything that we might bring up. I remember one time I had known Murray for a while and drew up some of his ideas. 229 00:32:35.220 --> 00:32:48.220 And I said, what do you think about Murray's idea about competing courts and police departments and so on? 230 00:32:48.220 --> 00:32:54.220 And he said, Rothbard, he's always, he's for everything that's against the government. 231 00:32:54.220 --> 00:33:03.980 Development. And so, Mises never wanted to get into that issue, although it came up one 232 00:33:03.980 --> 00:33:13.060 time at the seminar, but he wasn't really very open to the idea of a totally voluntary 233 00:33:13.060 --> 00:33:14.060 society. 234 00:33:14.060 --> 00:33:23.260 Okay, my college career, my first job was at Wabash College in Indiana. Ben Rogge got 235 00:33:23.260 --> 00:33:36.260 We had a position there as an instructor, and it was in Crawfordsville, Indiana, and those days were, I know, even today a town of 12,000 people. 236 00:33:36.260 --> 00:33:42.260 Before I lived in Crawfordsville, the smallest city I'd ever lived in was Paris. 237 00:33:42.260 --> 00:34:03.260 In Coffinsville, they sold, I swear, they sold olive oil in the pharmacy. It was a cure for earaches. So it was not exactly my place, but my sort of place. 238 00:34:03.260 --> 00:34:16.260 But my friend Bruce Goldberg was teaching at Champaign-Urbana at the time, not very far away, across the border in Illinois. 239 00:34:16.260 --> 00:34:31.260 And so we got together quite often with his new wife, Gabriella von Natsma, I think her maiden name, a German woman. 240 00:34:31.260 --> 00:34:37.260 Wonderful. I'm still in touch with her from time to time, although Bruce is gone. 241 00:34:37.260 --> 00:34:51.260 And very sharp. But anyway, so that was partially a compensation for living in Crawford School. 242 00:34:51.260 --> 00:34:59.260 And the students, it was an old boys' school, it still is, I think it's the only old boys' school in the country. 243 00:34:59.260 --> 00:35:11.260 But they were very bright kids, most of them. They were going to be doctors and lawyers and take over their dad's business when the time came and so on. 244 00:35:11.260 --> 00:35:18.260 So from that point of view, it was quite good. And it was my first teaching experience, so I learned a lot from that. 245 00:35:18.260 --> 00:35:27.260 But I still hadn't gotten through with my Ph.D. So after a few years, they let me go. 246 00:35:27.260 --> 00:35:52.260 And then I got down to it and finished it quite soon, but I got a job interview in the Buffalo, at Buffalo State College, or as they like to sometimes say, the State University of New York College at Buffalo, pretending that they're the University of Buffalo across town. 247 00:35:52.260 --> 00:36:15.260 I'm long retired, but I taught there for a long time, whatever, what was it, 25, 30 years. It was a good time, and some of the students were okay, but not like the Wabesh kids and not like the kids that I meet at the seminars of the Mises Institute. 248 00:36:15.260 --> 00:36:28.580 In the meantime, I did a lot of traveling, and mostly paid for, well, never paid for 249 00:36:28.580 --> 00:36:36.460 by me, mostly paid for by foundations or by the people that invited me, all over the U.S., 250 00:36:36.460 --> 00:36:49.460 in Canada a few times also, but mainly in Europe, all over Europe. It was one of the best parts of my life really. 251 00:36:49.460 --> 00:37:05.460 I visited Poland, went down to Krakow, Warsaw, Gdansk as they call it now, and Russia. 252 00:37:05.460 --> 00:37:16.020 That was funded by the Cato Institute. I gave a talk in Moscow and then went to Leningrad 253 00:37:16.020 --> 00:37:27.980 and met a couple of Russian students. The communist educational system was terrible 254 00:37:27.980 --> 00:37:32.940 from the ideological point of view, but otherwise it was excellent. Their English was better 255 00:37:32.940 --> 00:37:36.940 The Theory of Money and Credit 256 00:37:36.940 --> 00:37:40.940 The Theory of Money and Credit 257 00:38:02.940 --> 00:38:16.940 To Scandinavia, I see that the Café Hayek has an old talk of mine that I gave on the Industrial Revolution in Stockholm back in, whatever, early 2000. 258 00:38:16.940 --> 00:38:26.940 And what I remember from Stockholm is they like herring a lot. They really like herring. 259 00:38:26.940 --> 00:38:36.900 I had to, if you couldn't believe this, I had to take a plane down to Germany to get 260 00:38:36.900 --> 00:38:41.900 a decent meal. 261 00:38:41.900 --> 00:38:49.940 I've traveled all over Germany, Berlin a number of times, I traveled to Cologne, that 262 00:38:49.940 --> 00:38:58.340 That was at the invitation of a professor at, somehow come across, I forget how, Christian 263 00:38:58.340 --> 00:39:06.620 Wartling, and I addressed his seminar, and in fact a number of talks there. 264 00:39:06.620 --> 00:39:15.180 That was the genesis of my book on German liberalism that Dieter Hülspann then translated 265 00:39:15.180 --> 00:39:16.180 into German. 266 00:39:16.180 --> 00:39:26.180 Yes, it was at Cologne at some point that I met Guido, who, as I don't have to tell 267 00:39:26.180 --> 00:39:35.280 you, is simply amazing. He teaches at a French university now, the lectures in French. German 268 00:39:35.280 --> 00:39:42.860 is his native language, English is his third language, and it's absolutely flawless, besides 269 00:39:42.860 --> 00:39:47.860 and everything else, I mean, is a great skill as an analyst. 270 00:39:51.340 --> 00:39:53.740 Travel, let's see, as far as traveling goes, 271 00:39:53.740 --> 00:39:58.740 in Italy a lot, many times in the north. 272 00:40:02.500 --> 00:40:05.380 Never got any further south than Rome. 273 00:40:05.380 --> 00:40:09.500 Never visited my ancestral stamping grounds 274 00:40:09.500 --> 00:40:12.820 in Calabria, Naples, Sicily. 275 00:40:12.820 --> 00:40:15.060 but Italy was wonderful. 276 00:40:20.020 --> 00:40:22.640 Well, much could be said, of course. 277 00:40:24.260 --> 00:40:27.780 In Spain, also, I took some time. 278 00:40:27.780 --> 00:40:32.140 I was given a talk in Mallorca, 279 00:40:33.660 --> 00:40:36.120 off the coast, off the Mediterranean coast. 280 00:40:37.520 --> 00:40:39.780 So it was paid by some foundation or other. 281 00:40:39.780 --> 00:40:48.660 I stopped off at Barcelona to see the Gaudí buildings. He was a great architect from Barcelona. 282 00:40:48.660 --> 00:41:03.260 That was memorable. Actually, there was this Vienna, of course, many times. I didn't get 283 00:41:03.260 --> 00:41:10.220 to go along on the trip that the Mises Institute took to Vienna. When was that? 284 00:41:10.220 --> 00:41:14.220 Well, there have been two of them, the one most recently last year. 285 00:41:14.220 --> 00:41:17.220 So, what, late 1990s? 286 00:41:17.220 --> 00:41:22.220 Well, the first one was in the late 1980s. 287 00:41:22.220 --> 00:41:23.220 Oh, uh-huh. 288 00:41:23.220 --> 00:41:26.220 And the second one was 2011? 289 00:41:26.220 --> 00:41:28.220 I think 2011, yeah. 290 00:41:28.220 --> 00:41:41.540 Ah, yes, but I visited Vienna a number of times, had some friends there. As I said somewhere 291 00:41:41.540 --> 00:41:48.740 or other, I just heard myself saying it, I think maybe at one of the Mises Institute 292 00:41:48.740 --> 00:41:58.260 Lectures. This is, you know, this was the Vienna of Mises and Hayek and the great composers 293 00:41:58.260 --> 00:42:09.700 and so on. But by the time I visited, it was very different. The socialists had come in 294 00:42:09.700 --> 00:42:16.020 and they threw out the aristocrats. The Nazis came in and they threw out the Jews. And what 295 00:42:16.020 --> 00:42:28.260 What you see in Vienna now is what's left. Not very much. I never went to the Far East. 296 00:42:28.260 --> 00:42:41.180 It was too far. And Latin America never interested me at all, really. But Europe, traveling in 297 00:42:41.180 --> 00:42:59.180 My trip to Europe was a great experience. I'm not able, I can hardly go down to the store nowadays with my rheumatism and so on, so I'm not going to be traveling to Europe anymore, but I remember it. 298 00:42:59.180 --> 00:43:08.180 And maybe I should say a few things about my connection with the Mises Institute. 299 00:43:08.180 --> 00:43:09.180 Please, yes. 300 00:43:09.180 --> 00:43:20.180 Yes. Well, now, you have to verify this, Lew, I am not on the Institute payroll, am I? 301 00:43:20.180 --> 00:43:22.180 You are not. 302 00:43:22.180 --> 00:43:27.180 Right, okay. And your books are open to anybody who wants to check that, right? 303 00:43:27.180 --> 00:43:29.180 Yes. 304 00:43:29.180 --> 00:43:35.180 Okay, the Mises Institute is, well, let me just put it this way, it's Murray's dream come true. 305 00:43:35.180 --> 00:44:00.180 I can't say too much about it and about Lew and about the staff and about the people who work there and now with, I think, Chad Parrish is in charge of your technological outreach. 306 00:44:00.180 --> 00:44:03.180 He is. He's responsible for this session today, in fact. 307 00:44:03.180 --> 00:44:15.300 Is that right? Well, you know, it does a fantastic job. I mean, you have audio and video presentations 308 00:44:15.300 --> 00:44:24.820 that go out across the world, tens of thousands of people seeing it all the time, and you're 309 00:44:24.820 --> 00:44:34.900 According to great scholars, Hans is just one of the people, Hans Hoppe, just one of 310 00:44:34.900 --> 00:44:45.780 the people you've nurtured, Joseph Salerno, Guido, and of course, David also, and so on. 311 00:44:45.780 --> 00:44:54.460 So it's Murray's dream come true, and it is in a number of senses. 312 00:44:54.460 --> 00:45:01.460 in the sense that it is totally dedicated to the totally voluntary society, nudge-nudge, 313 00:45:05.980 --> 00:45:12.980 and beyond that, dedicated to the non-aggression principle. Now, because of the personnel at 314 00:45:15.060 --> 00:45:20.060 the Mises Institute, and Murray would have been totally in sympathy with this, I think 315 00:45:20.060 --> 00:45:34.620 But there's a strong inclination towards Christianity and Christian morality, and as long as there's 316 00:45:34.620 --> 00:45:39.700 the non-aggression principle, I have no problem with that myself personally. 317 00:45:39.700 --> 00:45:43.300 But Murray, I think, would have been very sympathetic to that. 318 00:45:43.300 --> 00:45:45.820 Any last questions? 319 00:45:45.820 --> 00:45:48.660 Tell us about your doctoral dissertation, speaking of Christianity. 320 00:45:48.660 --> 00:46:02.660 Yes, this question of the connection of liberty and Christianity was on my mind for a long time. 321 00:46:02.660 --> 00:46:08.660 And it came out in my doctoral dissertation. It was on the Committee on Social Thought, 322 00:46:08.660 --> 00:46:17.660 and I studied the thought of three liberal thinkers, Benjamin Cronstein, Alexis de Tocqueville, 323 00:46:17.660 --> 00:46:30.660 and Lord Acton and well basically Constable was a deist but very sympathetic to Christianity. 324 00:46:30.660 --> 00:46:36.820 Torfield was extremely sympathetic to Christianity although there's evidence that he was actually 325 00:46:36.820 --> 00:46:45.380 an agnostic but Lord Acton of course was a great Catholic historian so that was the general 326 00:46:45.380 --> 00:46:54.580 ," and allowed me to get into the thought of these men to a very great extent. 327 00:46:54.580 --> 00:47:02.980 When I started out, you may be, well, David will know this, there's a famous history of political thought by George Sabine. 328 00:47:02.980 --> 00:47:06.380 Oh, yes. Yes, it came out in Route 31. 329 00:47:06.380 --> 00:47:13.380 It was a classic in its time. And Benjamin Constant was not even mentioned. 330 00:47:13.380 --> 00:47:16.380 Nobody mentioned Constant in the English-speaking world. 331 00:47:16.380 --> 00:47:21.380 I mean, it's part of the parochialism of Anglo-Saxons. 332 00:47:21.380 --> 00:47:27.380 So I was one of the first people, really, to get into Constant to a large extent. 333 00:47:27.380 --> 00:47:36.380 And Constant is still my favorite 19th century liberal. 334 00:47:36.380 --> 00:47:42.380 Hayek said that Tocqueville and Acton were his favorite 19th century liberals, 335 00:47:42.380 --> 00:47:53.380 But, well, that's Hayek, as far as I'm concerned, a mistake, but Constanze was terrific all the way through. 336 00:47:53.380 --> 00:48:03.380 RALPH, you mentioned Bruce Goldberg. Isn't it right that you converted Bruce Goldberg to libertarianism? 337 00:48:03.380 --> 00:48:11.380 Yeah. Yeah. Well, I did. Actually, I introduced him to libertarian ideas. The one who converted him was Murray. 338 00:48:11.380 --> 00:48:20.020 Because Bruce came down to the Sarah Bastiat meetings at Murray's place and they talked 339 00:48:20.020 --> 00:48:26.020 on and on and Bruce raised his questions and Murray answered them. 340 00:48:26.020 --> 00:48:32.060 And it was Bruce that then went on to Princeton, the grad school, and I went down to Chicago. 341 00:48:32.060 --> 00:48:37.180 And at Princeton, Bruce met Bob Nozick. 342 00:48:37.180 --> 00:48:44.900 Bob Nozick, I think I have a little piece on that that's in my archive at lewrockwell.com 343 00:48:44.900 --> 00:48:58.780 on what happened with Bob Nozick and Bob became great friends at Princeton and Bob read everything 344 00:48:58.780 --> 00:49:05.940 anybody suggested that he thought might be interesting and so Bob started reading libertarian 345 00:49:05.940 --> 00:49:12.900 Works, and became a libertarian for a while. Afterwards, I think he had some second thoughts. 346 00:49:12.900 --> 00:49:22.500 He was basically a free enterprise man throughout his life, throughout his unfortunately short 347 00:49:22.500 --> 00:49:34.660 life, but he was a libertarian for a while. Bruce also converted temporarily, another 348 00:49:34.660 --> 00:49:45.660 My grand student at Princeton was George Will. But George Will went on to study at Oxford 349 00:49:45.660 --> 00:49:57.660 and was seduced by the whole Tory business and wrote a book called Statecraft as Soulcraft. 350 00:49:57.660 --> 00:50:09.780 You will probably hear the echoes of some communist slogan, engineers of the soul, intellectuals 351 00:50:09.780 --> 00:50:23.500 or engineers of the soul, but Bob Nozick was also obviously a very interesting and I guess 352 00:50:23.500 --> 00:50:26.820 philosophically important and influential man. 353 00:50:26.820 --> 00:50:33.280 IHS was a great institution and you were long times associated with them. 354 00:50:33.280 --> 00:50:38.780 What led to your disassociation from them? 355 00:50:38.780 --> 00:50:40.740 What was my...? 356 00:50:40.740 --> 00:50:46.020 Why did you kind of move away from the IHS? 357 00:50:46.020 --> 00:50:56.100 I didn't really, my connection at IHS was Leonard, Leonard Ligio, who sponsored my giving 358 00:50:56.100 --> 00:51:04.660 talks around the different campuses and so on for a while, but now I think it's become 359 00:51:04.660 --> 00:51:13.060 quite a different organization, as they all do, they all become Mendeo Cond, sooner or 360 00:51:13.060 --> 00:51:23.060 A little later it seems, but that was useful and helpful and valuable as it was going on. 361 00:51:23.060 --> 00:51:30.060 And, you know, really, I don't want to say it, but anything to get out of Buffalo. 362 00:51:30.060 --> 00:51:36.060 Really, I'm used to the place now. 363 00:51:36.060 --> 00:51:39.060 Anything else come up? 364 00:51:39.060 --> 00:51:48.060 One thing, is this right in your, you were influenced quite a bit by Paul Goodman. Could you tell us a bit about him? 365 00:51:48.060 --> 00:52:05.060 Well, yeah, that was a mistake, unfortunately. I think he called himself a Tory anarchist. Anyway, his political views were quite attractive. 366 00:52:05.060 --> 00:52:13.300 and I went through a phase where I believed in liberation and in the Goodman-esque sense. 367 00:52:13.300 --> 00:52:25.940 But, I forget who sponsored it, it was some other foundation where a bunch of other speakers, 368 00:52:25.940 --> 00:52:33.860 Tom Sauce was there, Paul Goodman, some others myself, and I got to know him a little better 369 00:52:33.860 --> 00:52:44.860 personally, and I came to the conclusion that he was kind of phony. So, that was, as I say, a mistake. 370 00:52:44.860 --> 00:52:53.860 One other question. A great many of your writings, you've done very important work in revisionist history. 371 00:52:53.860 --> 00:52:57.860 Could you say something about how you became acquainted with that? 372 00:52:57.860 --> 00:53:01.860 Oh, sure. I've got a connection with Murray. You know, all the things that I owe to him. 373 00:53:01.860 --> 00:53:14.860 One of the main things I owe to him is my interest in revisionism, that is revising the government's line about how we got into wars, how we conducted wars, the aftermath of wars, and so on. 374 00:53:14.860 --> 00:53:20.860 And Murray introduced me to that. He was a big revisionist in that sense. 375 00:53:20.860 --> 00:53:35.380 and the first book that Mises Institute published of mine, Great Wars, Great Leaders, a Libertarian 376 00:53:35.380 --> 00:53:40.620 Rebuttal, is basically a revisionist work and is dedicated to Murray for that reason 377 00:53:40.620 --> 00:53:46.620 and I have a little introduction there about Murray and revisionist history. 378 00:53:46.620 --> 00:54:04.620 You know, if we didn't have revisionism, we'd still believe that the USS Maine was in Havana Harbor on a goodwill tour, 379 00:54:04.620 --> 00:54:30.620 It was blown up by the vicious Spaniards that Lincoln went to war, invaded the South to free the slaves, that Woodrow Wilson loved peace, that Franklin Roosevelt spent every day and night soiling ceaselessly for peace. 380 00:54:30.620 --> 00:54:34.620 That's the sort of stuff we'd believe if we didn't have revisionism. 381 00:54:34.620 --> 00:54:45.620 So I think another reason Murray would love the work of the Mises Institute is because of their interest in revisionism. 382 00:54:45.620 --> 00:54:49.620 Anything else come up? 383 00:54:49.620 --> 00:54:56.620 Could you talk a little bit about the relationship at Chicago between Friedman and Hayek and the rest of the economics department? 384 00:54:56.620 --> 00:55:09.460 Yeah, well, as I say, Hayek was always punctilious in his politeness, so they were very civil 385 00:55:09.460 --> 00:55:10.460 to each other. 386 00:55:10.460 --> 00:55:18.380 I don't think they had very much to do with each other socially, because as you know, 387 00:55:18.380 --> 00:55:30.380 Friedman and Stigler didn't think that Hayek was a real economist. I don't know what they thought he was, a rocketeer or something. 388 00:55:33.380 --> 00:55:43.380 But of course, every year, whenever the Nobel Prizes are given out, the University of Chicago gets a full page ad in the New York Times, 389 00:55:43.380 --> 00:55:49.620 Times, lists all the Nobel laureates and all the different disciplines connected with Chicago, 390 00:55:49.620 --> 00:55:56.340 and they list Hayek also, giving the impression that Hayek had something to do with the economics 391 00:55:56.340 --> 00:56:02.300 department, although he was purely on the Committee on Social Development. 392 00:56:02.300 --> 00:56:12.300 So I don't think that Hayek had much to do with anybody in the economics department. 393 00:56:12.300 --> 00:56:25.300 The last time I saw Hayek was in Freiburg, where he, I think, still having money problems 394 00:56:25.300 --> 00:56:32.100 Problems or Money Issues, went to teach after he retired from the Committee on Social Threat. 395 00:56:32.100 --> 00:56:39.700 And I think I was with Bruce Colbert at the time we were spending some time in Freiburg. 396 00:56:39.700 --> 00:56:49.540 And it was an interesting note. I don't remember too much of the conversation. 397 00:56:49.540 --> 00:57:13.540 Hayek told some anecdotes. We chatted a bit. We had Prankofen, which is a really great German pancake, which is the main thing that sticks in my mind. But that's as far as Hayek goes. 398 00:57:13.540 --> 00:57:15.540 Did you ever attend first? 399 00:57:15.540 --> 00:57:17.540 Wait, let me say that. 400 00:57:17.540 --> 00:57:19.540 The Cato Institute. 401 00:57:19.540 --> 00:57:21.540 You know, I was vice president of the Cato Institute 402 00:57:21.540 --> 00:57:23.540 when it was set up in San Francisco. 403 00:57:23.540 --> 00:57:25.540 And Murray was 404 00:57:25.540 --> 00:57:27.540 the chief 405 00:57:27.540 --> 00:57:29.540 theoretician. 406 00:57:29.540 --> 00:57:31.540 That was 407 00:57:31.540 --> 00:57:33.540 before 408 00:57:33.540 --> 00:57:35.540 they moved to Washington 409 00:57:35.540 --> 00:57:37.540 and wanted to get in with the 410 00:57:37.540 --> 00:57:39.540 establishment. 411 00:57:39.540 --> 00:57:41.540 Murray was finally 412 00:57:41.540 --> 00:58:09.540 was kicked out and I didn't have anything more to do with it. But it's typical, they have a great modernistic new building in Washington and the great lecture hall where it seats, I don't know, hundreds of people, is called the Hayek Hall. 413 00:58:09.540 --> 00:58:29.540 They would never name anything after Mises. Mises was too controversial. And of course, it doesn't bother them that Hayek and the Constitution of Liberty is, as Hans says, practically indistinguishable from a social democrat. 414 00:58:29.540 --> 00:58:37.540 He's in favor of one welfare measure after the other, even no government housing. 415 00:58:37.540 --> 00:58:49.980 Well, I hope that I sounded OK, that it worked out OK, and thanks for the opportunity to 416 00:58:49.980 --> 00:58:50.980 make myself immortal. 417 00:58:50.980 --> 00:58:51.980 Take care. 418 00:58:51.980 --> 00:58:52.980 Thanks, Ralph. 419 00:58:52.980 --> 00:58:53.980 Bye, Ralph. 420 00:58:54.980 --> 00:58:55.980 Bye, Ralph.