WEBVTT NOTE Nullification: Jefferson's Remedy for Tyranny, Yesterday and Today 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:07.600 Our final speaker, senior fellow of history at the Ludwig von Mises Institute, he holds 2 00:00:07.600 --> 00:00:14.760 a bachelor's degree in history from Harvard, PhD from Columbia, author of a number of books, 3 00:00:14.760 --> 00:00:19.360 New York Times best seller, the politically incorrect guide to American history, 33 questions 4 00:00:19.360 --> 00:00:25.040 about American history you're not supposed to ask, the church and the market, he had 5 00:00:25.040 --> 00:00:32.040 Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. It's my second time here at FreedomFest. It's always 6 00:00:55.040 --> 00:01:04.840 I've just been so down and depressed lately about the direction of things that it just 7 00:01:04.840 --> 00:01:07.680 keeps popping out even in the midst of the optimism. 8 00:01:07.680 --> 00:01:10.720 So for instance, this just happened. 9 00:01:10.720 --> 00:01:14.440 Someone gave me a copy of one of my books and asked, could I sign it for a friend of 10 00:01:14.440 --> 00:01:18.320 his who had just the other day become a U.S. citizen? 11 00:01:18.320 --> 00:01:19.800 What should I say to this person? 12 00:01:19.800 --> 00:01:22.800 My first instinct was, how about, welcome to the Titanic. 13 00:01:22.800 --> 00:01:29.800 But, you know, I decided to be nice and have some manners. 14 00:01:29.800 --> 00:01:30.800 I said something nicer. 15 00:01:30.800 --> 00:01:38.800 All right, well, what I'm going to talk about today is this subject of nullification. 16 00:01:38.800 --> 00:01:44.800 Now, this is something that's true that the New York Times is not going to recommend to you. 17 00:01:44.800 --> 00:01:47.800 MSNBC is not going to recommend it to you. 18 00:01:47.800 --> 00:01:53.800 John McCain is not going to recommend it to you, so you have to wonder, are you even allowed to think it? 19 00:01:53.800 --> 00:01:56.800 Right? I mean, none of these sources are recommending it. 20 00:01:56.800 --> 00:02:00.800 But to me, that sort of is precisely what does recommend it. 21 00:02:00.800 --> 00:02:06.800 Precisely the fact that the establishment is not interested in or feels threatened by it makes me think, 22 00:02:06.800 --> 00:02:08.800 well, it might be something to this. 23 00:02:08.800 --> 00:02:12.800 So that's why I decided to write this here book. 24 00:02:12.800 --> 00:02:16.800 And you'll notice on the cover we've got the Obama White House here. 25 00:02:16.800 --> 00:02:45.800 The book is premised on the idea that just continuing to try the same old things to restrain Washington D.C. seems unlikely to work. 26 00:02:45.800 --> 00:02:50.340 Now, the guardians of approved opinion will say nullification is crazy, because again, 27 00:02:50.340 --> 00:02:55.400 Chris Matthews doesn't talk about it, Newsweek doesn't mention it, so how could it not be 28 00:02:55.400 --> 00:03:02.880 crazy? But by crazy, they mean that it doesn't fall within the three-inch spectrum from Mitch 29 00:03:02.880 --> 00:03:07.520 McConnell to Hillary Clinton, and that is true. It doesn't fall anywhere there, but 30 00:03:07.520 --> 00:03:13.000 nor should any normal American want to fall anywhere within there. So it's true, yes, 31 00:03:13.000 --> 00:03:23.720 The Pro-Government Party has spent the better part of a century taking ideas no one had, 32 00:03:23.720 --> 00:03:28.160 foisting them on the public until they become sort of popular or the public sort of gets 33 00:03:28.160 --> 00:03:32.120 the message that I guess we're supposed to believe in X, Y, or Z, and then rams them 34 00:03:32.120 --> 00:03:33.120 through to the general public. 35 00:03:33.120 --> 00:03:35.560 I don't see why we can't do the same thing. 36 00:03:35.560 --> 00:03:41.480 Incidentally, my favorite example of that is the Elizabeth Dole presidential campaign. 37 00:03:41.480 --> 00:03:44.120 Do you all remember Elizabeth Dole, Bob Dole's wife? 38 00:03:44.120 --> 00:03:45.520 I'm sure a lovely woman, right? 39 00:03:45.520 --> 00:03:48.360 I mean, nothing offensively wrong with her. 40 00:03:48.360 --> 00:03:51.480 But it's not like in the 1990s, people were saying, man, 41 00:03:51.480 --> 00:03:55.320 if I can't vote, if I don't have the opportunity 42 00:03:55.320 --> 00:03:57.560 to vote for Elizabeth Dole for president, 43 00:03:57.560 --> 00:03:59.880 I don't think I should go on living. 44 00:03:59.880 --> 00:04:02.360 I mean, there just weren't people like that in the country. 45 00:04:02.360 --> 00:04:05.560 And if there was no groundswell of support, 46 00:04:05.560 --> 00:04:08.040 no citizen groups calling for Elizabeth Dole 47 00:04:08.040 --> 00:04:11.460 to be a presidential candidate, how did she become one? 48 00:04:11.460 --> 00:04:16.820 She became one because people who form what our opinions are supposed to be went on television 49 00:04:16.820 --> 00:04:21.620 and said in somber tones, well, I happen to think Elizabeth Dole would make a fine candidate. 50 00:04:21.620 --> 00:04:25.500 And they just do this over and over and over until people start saying, you know, I've 51 00:04:25.500 --> 00:04:28.580 heard that Elizabeth Dole would make a fine candidate. 52 00:04:28.580 --> 00:04:34.360 And this just seems to, and by the way, one of those people, of course, was Bob Dole. 53 00:04:34.360 --> 00:04:36.260 But I mean, I don't see why that can't work for us. 54 00:04:36.260 --> 00:04:39.020 Like we don't have a lot of people in the media, but we know a lot of people. 55 00:04:39.020 --> 00:04:54.020 We have a lot of friends, we have the internet, and the idea of nullification has been sort of brewing and circulating here and there, but thanks to the internet, people can learn about it, people can hear about it, that it exists and could actually be an option. 56 00:04:54.020 --> 00:05:06.020 Now it's true that in my opinion all governments are in some way sort of beyond saving, that ultimately they just grow and grow and grow, they have every incentive to grow, it's very difficult to stop them. 57 00:05:06.020 --> 00:05:16.020 But that doesn't mean, though, that institutional factors can't slow or even from time to time reverse the growth of a government. 58 00:05:16.020 --> 00:05:20.020 And so, you know, it's worth at least trying. So my argument is that we ought to try something different. 59 00:05:20.020 --> 00:05:28.020 I mean, don't just keep voting for plastic men and hoping that that'll change things, that it's not enough to issue policy reports. 60 00:05:28.020 --> 00:05:32.020 Not that there's anything wrong with policy reports. People can learn from policy reports. 61 00:05:32.020 --> 00:05:40.020 The purpose of a policy report is to educate the general public so that they understand why this policy or that law is a bad idea. 62 00:05:40.020 --> 00:05:42.020 It's not going to influence the politicians. 63 00:05:42.020 --> 00:05:47.020 They're not standing around saying, oh my gosh, I just read this policy report. 64 00:05:47.020 --> 00:05:56.020 Can you believe it turns out that if you tax the private sector so that you can hand money to your politically favored friends, this hurts the economy? 65 00:05:56.020 --> 00:06:00.020 I mean, who knew? I can't believe it. I've been doing this all this time. 66 00:06:00.020 --> 00:06:30.020 So we need to do something different from this. It's wonderful to have conferences and give speeches. It's wonderful to support people who give wonderful speeches and they're going to get in office and fix things. That's just super. That's sure gotten us places. But I'm suggesting we have to supplement this with something else. And what I'm suggesting is that we consider the long dormant and up to now despised 67 00:06:30.020 --> 00:07:00.020 but suddenly making a comeback, Jeffersonian tradition of political decentralization, that's step one is decentralization, that maybe the best strategy is not to try to conquer Washington D.C., maybe it's better to focus on more local units, states and local governments, and get a bunch of people in there with a backbone, and some of these people, by the way, they're different from, and of course I accept Ron Paul, but most people in the U.S. Congress are ego cases who are secretly hoping to be president someday, so they're 68 00:07:00.020 --> 00:07:06.300 The guy who's in the local state house, he might even be your neighbor. There's a remote 69 00:07:06.300 --> 00:07:10.940 chance he might be a decent guy, who if you say to him, hey man, you could be a part of 70 00:07:10.940 --> 00:07:15.520 history standing up to this thing, maybe he might do it. Who knows? But there's at least 71 00:07:15.520 --> 00:07:21.700 a remote chance you can beat your state legislature. We've heard stories of people who have done 72 00:07:21.700 --> 00:07:27.220 it. Very rare to hear a story of how I defeated the U.S. Senate single-handedly. You're not 73 00:07:27.220 --> 00:07:36.420 The Jeffersonian Decentralist story includes the right of state nullification. The argument 74 00:07:36.420 --> 00:07:44.780 behind state nullification is simply that the states ought to refuse to cooperate in 75 00:07:44.780 --> 00:07:50.780 the enforcement of unconstitutional laws. Given that, the vast bulk of what the federal 76 00:07:50.780 --> 00:07:56.100 government does is clearly unconstitutional by the standards of the people who ratified 77 00:07:56.100 --> 00:08:02.920 of the Constitution, and this is demonstrable and I do demonstrate that I think in nullification. 78 00:08:02.920 --> 00:08:09.260 Given that, there's certainly a lot of work we can be doing, a lot of things to be nullified. 79 00:08:09.260 --> 00:08:16.140 But Jefferson's argument was that if the federal government can have a monopoly, is 80 00:08:16.140 --> 00:08:21.780 allowed to have a monopoly on determining the scope of its own powers, we have no right 81 00:08:21.780 --> 00:08:24.880 to be surprised when it keeps discovering new ones. 82 00:08:24.880 --> 00:08:31.240 So the states have to function as the check on the federal government, otherwise it ain't 83 00:08:31.240 --> 00:08:32.240 going to work. 84 00:08:32.240 --> 00:08:34.720 Now that doesn't mean that we're saying that the states are all wonderful. 85 00:08:34.720 --> 00:08:40.000 The states, the state governments are full of sociopaths too, but they are marginally 86 00:08:40.000 --> 00:08:47.880 easier to control sociopaths, and they are marginally more responsive to public opinion. 87 00:08:47.880 --> 00:08:53.220 Now when you talk about this sort of idea, you are going to elicit some opposition. 88 00:08:53.220 --> 00:08:57.400 As I've said, the establishment isn't going to like it. 89 00:08:57.400 --> 00:09:01.280 But also the political left isn't going to like it because for some reason they think 90 00:09:01.280 --> 00:09:07.880 it's progressive to have a strong centralized state unfettered by checks from the states. 91 00:09:07.880 --> 00:09:11.480 I don't see why that would be necessarily progressive. 92 00:09:11.480 --> 00:09:15.580 That would make Hitler's Germany the most progressive society on earth. 93 00:09:15.580 --> 00:09:19.460 So I don't see why this is naturally considered to be progressive. 94 00:09:19.460 --> 00:09:24.340 There are some leftists, some progressives, who do believe in local self-government. 95 00:09:24.340 --> 00:09:28.060 I do believe there are some people in Vermont who basically favor just running their own 96 00:09:28.060 --> 00:09:31.960 affairs and having farmers markets and telling the feds to go take a hike. 97 00:09:31.960 --> 00:09:34.860 But they are a rare breed, unfortunately. 98 00:09:34.860 --> 00:09:38.540 And likewise, on the political right, it's not like they're a huge number favoring this 99 00:09:38.540 --> 00:09:39.540 either. 100 00:09:39.540 --> 00:09:44.260 I mean, yeah, right now everybody's for political decentralization because we don't like Obama. 101 00:09:44.260 --> 00:09:49.180 But try advocating this in a couple of years and maybe they'll want to put you in jail. 102 00:09:49.180 --> 00:09:54.500 So what we're trying to do here is talk to people and say, regardless of what your political 103 00:09:54.500 --> 00:09:59.380 views are, we can agree that we ought to be at least discussing them face to face in our 104 00:09:59.380 --> 00:10:06.940 own neighborhoods and not letting these totally unresponsive boobs and jerks and thieves and 105 00:10:06.940 --> 00:10:13.060 liars come up with solutions that are unsatisfying to us both. 106 00:10:13.060 --> 00:10:17.140 Maybe in Vermont they want to shut down big box stores or they want to do things that 107 00:10:17.140 --> 00:10:20.860 I wouldn't like, and I might want to do things that they wouldn't like, but usually what 108 00:10:20.860 --> 00:10:23.700 the US government does is something that neither one of us likes. 109 00:10:23.700 --> 00:10:25.940 Neither one of us liked the bank bailouts, for example. 110 00:10:25.940 --> 00:10:26.940 We were all against it. 111 00:10:26.940 --> 00:10:28.820 They did it anyway. 112 00:10:28.820 --> 00:10:31.760 These people cannot be controlled. 113 00:10:31.760 --> 00:10:36.660 But the left, by and large, is going to be opposed to this because they, rightly or wrongly, 114 00:10:36.660 --> 00:10:41.220 associate it with disreputable causes, and I'll have more to say about that a little 115 00:10:41.220 --> 00:10:42.220 later. 116 00:10:42.220 --> 00:10:47.780 I want to run into opposition from, I'm sorry to say, some libertarians, because there are 117 00:10:47.780 --> 00:10:51.140 some libertarians, and I'm not here talking about Randy Barnett if you've been following 118 00:10:51.140 --> 00:10:55.820 that. I like Randy Barnett. I think he's an okay guy. I think he's wrong about this, 119 00:10:55.820 --> 00:11:00.020 and I answered him on lewrockwell.com today. I'm not thinking about him. I'm thinking 120 00:11:00.020 --> 00:11:06.520 about a lot of D.C. sort of libertarians for whom the idea of the states is just kind of 121 00:11:06.520 --> 00:11:11.060 embarrassing to them. Like, their strategy is the Hamiltonian strategy. Their strategy 122 00:11:11.060 --> 00:11:15.380 is, let's conquer DC and make sure we impose liberty from above. 123 00:11:15.380 --> 00:11:17.700 Yeah, how's that been working out? 124 00:11:17.700 --> 00:11:21.660 And I'm not saying, by the way, you shouldn't try, might as well, you know, couldn't hurt. 125 00:11:21.660 --> 00:11:23.620 But don't denigrate other people's strategies. 126 00:11:23.620 --> 00:11:24.620 That's my point. 127 00:11:24.620 --> 00:11:28.900 Don't suggest that anybody who supports the states is probably some secret oppressor 128 00:11:28.900 --> 00:11:29.900 of people. 129 00:11:29.900 --> 00:11:30.900 I mean, come on. 130 00:11:30.900 --> 00:11:32.900 Come on now, for heaven's sake. 131 00:11:32.900 --> 00:11:34.820 So there's that. 132 00:11:34.820 --> 00:11:38.220 But you will find a lot of people who are sympathetic. 133 00:11:38.220 --> 00:11:43.140 And that is a lot of disgruntled conservatives. I would say also the majority of libertarians, 134 00:11:43.140 --> 00:11:47.020 the regular libertarians who live in the normal parts of the country, you will find them in 135 00:11:47.020 --> 00:11:50.740 support. And you will find a lot of the Tea Party people in support, except they don't 136 00:11:50.740 --> 00:11:53.900 know they're in support yet. And what do I mean by that? Well, I have a friend named 137 00:11:53.900 --> 00:12:03.380 Michael Bolden, not Michael Bolton the singer, Michael Bolden, who gave a wonderful Tea Party 138 00:12:03.380 --> 00:12:09.300 speech back on tax day, April 15th. He runs something called the 10th Amendment Center. 139 00:12:09.300 --> 00:12:14.220 Bolden gives this rip-roaring speech about nullification to this Tea Party group. Now 140 00:12:14.220 --> 00:12:17.680 what is this Tea Party group expecting him to talk about? Well, they're expecting him 141 00:12:17.680 --> 00:12:21.680 to say, hey, you know, in 2010, let's vote for a different stooge from the one who's 142 00:12:21.680 --> 00:12:26.560 representing us now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He refuses to give them that speech. Instead, 143 00:12:26.560 --> 00:12:32.200 he gives a beautiful exposition of nullification and the Virginia and Kentucky resolutions 144 00:12:32.200 --> 00:12:37.240 of 1798, which I'll be talking about here, and at first, they don't understand what 145 00:12:37.240 --> 00:12:43.480 he's saying at all. He's saying to them, when our liberties are taken from us, and 146 00:12:43.480 --> 00:12:49.580 our rights are violated, he said, should we sue them in their own courts? And they cheer 147 00:12:49.580 --> 00:12:54.560 for this, but he's sort of saying, well, actually, no, that's a waste of time. So 148 00:12:54.560 --> 00:12:57.720 he's saying, should we vote them out? And they're going, yeah, we should vote them 149 00:12:57.720 --> 00:13:06.720 Let me talk to you about the Virginia and Kentucky resolutions of 1798. 150 00:13:06.720 --> 00:13:10.720 Now in a group like this, you mention those and people say, woohoo, Virginia and Kentucky resolutions. 151 00:13:10.720 --> 00:13:15.720 He talks about this and you can hear crickets. People say, what? What's this guy talking about? 152 00:13:15.720 --> 00:13:20.720 But by the end of this speech, these people are cheering like crazy. 153 00:13:20.720 --> 00:13:23.720 They're ready to go out and nullify the next thing that comes down. 154 00:13:23.720 --> 00:13:26.720 Where do we start? Where do we sign up for this thing? 155 00:13:26.720 --> 00:13:31.680 So there is a potentially huge market for this idea. 156 00:13:31.680 --> 00:13:36.040 Now if you were to read this book, and frankly I'm happy with how this came out, because 157 00:13:36.040 --> 00:13:42.360 I think the argument in it is, it's sober, it's reasonable, it's based on history, it's 158 00:13:42.360 --> 00:13:48.800 based on morality, the second half of it is full of primary documents that nobody reads, 159 00:13:48.800 --> 00:13:52.120 but that need to be read, and again just to show that I didn't make this up, this isn't 160 00:13:52.120 --> 00:14:22.120 This is real stuff from real American history. I'm kind of sticking it in their faces by putting these documents in there. Pretend these don't exist. If you were to read this book, I think you will not walk away from it saying, that's just crazy. That's the one thing I think you will not say. You might say, I disagree with this. You might say, I'm an anarchist, I don't care about government anyway, so this whole thing is a waste of time. You might say that, but you will not say, this is just crazy. The argument is much stronger than 161 00:14:22.120 --> 00:14:31.720 Now, but, but, but, but, before we get started in the full exposition, let me anticipate 162 00:14:31.720 --> 00:14:38.080 one of the many objections, and I answer a lot of the objections in this book. 163 00:14:38.080 --> 00:14:42.140 John C. Calhoun, wasn't he one of the key architects of nullification, and wasn't he 164 00:14:42.140 --> 00:14:44.640 really just looking to protect slavery? 165 00:14:44.640 --> 00:14:49.720 Well, Calhoun did favor nullification, that's true, but the idea really originates with 166 00:14:49.720 --> 00:14:55.160 with Jefferson, which is why Andrew Jackson, when he was castigating South Carolina, kept 167 00:14:55.160 --> 00:15:00.960 referring to the Virginia Doctrine, the Virginia Doctrine, because he knows it comes from Thomas 168 00:15:00.960 --> 00:15:07.580 Jefferson. It does not come from Calhoun. But secondly, the abolitionists themselves, 169 00:15:07.580 --> 00:15:12.320 when they fought against the fugitive slave laws, the abolitionists themselves referred 170 00:15:12.320 --> 00:15:19.320 to Calhoun by name when citing his arguments to bolster their own case for state nullified 171 00:15:19.720 --> 00:15:29.720 and, of course, Liberty Fund published a volume of Calhoun's writings. Presumably, we are grown up enough to be able to read this guy and assess the merits of what he's saying. 172 00:15:29.720 --> 00:15:37.720 Okay, so what is nullification? Again, it is the idea that the states ought to prevent the enforcement of an unconstitutional law within their borders. 173 00:15:37.720 --> 00:15:45.720 The arguments for it are fairly straightforward, that without this power, the federal government will just continue trampling on your rights, 174 00:15:45.720 --> 00:15:50.080 Science, that this power cannot safely be entrusted solely to the courts. 175 00:15:50.080 --> 00:15:53.360 The federal courts are themselves a branch of the federal government, so therefore they 176 00:15:53.360 --> 00:15:55.520 are not impartial arbiters. 177 00:15:55.520 --> 00:15:59.120 And as Tom DiLorenzo said, they wind up rubber-stamping everything anyway. 178 00:15:59.120 --> 00:16:02.920 I mean, some protector of our liberties, these bums are. 179 00:16:02.920 --> 00:16:05.500 And I'm supposed to be told, well, just keep on waiting. 180 00:16:05.500 --> 00:16:06.500 Just wait. 181 00:16:06.500 --> 00:16:08.360 Eventually we'll get some better people on the court. 182 00:16:08.360 --> 00:16:11.160 How many, I mean, are we going to be still saying this 500 years from now? 183 00:16:11.160 --> 00:16:15.240 I mean, like, at what point do we say this doesn't seem to be working? 184 00:16:15.240 --> 00:16:20.520 So Jefferson took that position, and Madison and others took that position, that the courts 185 00:16:20.520 --> 00:16:25.400 are themselves part of the branch, of the wing of government, the federal government, 186 00:16:25.400 --> 00:16:29.960 that you're fighting against. They are not impartial arbiters. They might not even choose 187 00:16:29.960 --> 00:16:34.680 to hear the case in question. So then what do you do? There has got to be some kind of 188 00:16:34.680 --> 00:16:40.080 additional defense mechanism. And elections are not a sufficient defense mechanism. I 189 00:16:40.080 --> 00:16:49.680 I presume I don't need to persuade any of you in this room of that, that sometimes elections do not lead to the selection of wise people. 190 00:16:49.680 --> 00:16:55.080 I mean, there's once in a while, once in a while you get a real dum-dum in there. 191 00:16:55.080 --> 00:17:02.380 So that's not necessary. And then suppose you did, suppose you vote out some bad guy and you replace him with some guy who gives great speeches. 192 00:17:02.380 --> 00:17:04.580 Hey, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that, I'm going to protect your liberties. 193 00:17:04.580 --> 00:17:09.580 Then he gets in there and does the exact opposite. So again, you get screwed. Like, what can you do? 194 00:17:09.580 --> 00:17:11.380 Wait for the next election. 195 00:17:11.380 --> 00:17:14.880 Okay, well, what about when you're in Thomas Jefferson's situation? 196 00:17:14.880 --> 00:17:17.780 You've got the Alien and Sedition Acts of 1798. 197 00:17:17.780 --> 00:17:22.680 Then, among other things, make it a crime for you to criticize the President or Congress. 198 00:17:22.680 --> 00:17:25.480 You can go to jail for this or be fined. 199 00:17:25.480 --> 00:17:28.480 Was he supposed to sit around and wait for the next election? 200 00:17:28.480 --> 00:17:32.580 His newspapers can't even criticize the sitting President 201 00:17:32.580 --> 00:17:34.080 without having their editors imprisoned. 202 00:17:34.080 --> 00:17:35.380 What is he supposed to do? 203 00:17:35.380 --> 00:17:37.080 Oh, just sit around and wait? 204 00:17:37.080 --> 00:17:38.480 No, we're going to fight this thing. 205 00:17:38.480 --> 00:17:46.240 Incidentally, when those acts were passed, there was even a congressman, a congressman 206 00:17:46.240 --> 00:17:54.800 from Vermont who was put in jail for what, by modern standards, is extremely mild criticism 207 00:17:54.800 --> 00:17:56.640 of President John Adams. 208 00:17:56.640 --> 00:18:01.900 So this poor congressman, U.S. congressman, is imprisoned and the people of Vermont supported 209 00:18:01.900 --> 00:18:08.080 him so strongly that he was re-elected to Congress while still in prison. 210 00:18:08.080 --> 00:18:17.560 That's, that's, that's heroism. It's like when Eugene Debs ran for president from jail 211 00:18:17.560 --> 00:18:27.840 in 1920 and the campaign button says, for president, convict number 26573. That's beautiful. 212 00:18:27.840 --> 00:18:34.600 So Jefferson and Madison draft respectively the Kentucky and Virginia Resolutions of 1798. 213 00:18:34.600 --> 00:18:41.600 Again, most of you know this, but it depresses me. The U.S. Constitution has like five zillion fans on Facebook. 214 00:18:41.600 --> 00:18:47.600 The Virginia and Kentucky resolutions have like 300 fans. Like, what is this? Come on, people. 215 00:18:47.600 --> 00:18:54.600 These documents are unbelievable. The Virginia resolutions say the states are duty-bound to resist unconstitutional laws. 216 00:18:54.600 --> 00:18:59.600 You don't have the right to sit back and allow this to go on. You've got to resist it. 217 00:18:59.600 --> 00:19:06.480 The Virginia General Assembly, when it was debating the Virginia Resolutions of 1798, 218 00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:11.560 agreed, everyone concurred that unconstitutional laws were not laws. 219 00:19:11.560 --> 00:19:14.000 They were void in and of themselves. 220 00:19:14.000 --> 00:19:17.640 So therefore it followed logically that you can't enforce them. 221 00:19:17.640 --> 00:19:21.160 You can't enforce a non-existent constitutionality. 222 00:19:21.160 --> 00:19:26.880 The Kentucky Resolutions of 1798 were perhaps even bolder, and bolder still were the follow-up 223 00:19:26.880 --> 00:19:33.040 Resolutions, the Kentucky Resolutions of 1799, that used the word nullification. Nullification 224 00:19:33.040 --> 00:19:41.840 is the rightful remedy, said Kentucky. In New York, Congressman Edward Livingston, looking 225 00:19:41.840 --> 00:19:47.480 at this offensive legislation, said as follows, if regardless of our duty as citizens and 226 00:19:47.480 --> 00:19:52.600 our solemn obligations as representatives, regardless of the rights of our constituents, 227 00:19:52.600 --> 00:19:58.040 Regardless of every sanction, human and divine, we are ready to violate the constitution we 228 00:19:58.040 --> 00:20:00.720 have sworn to defend. 229 00:20:00.720 --> 00:20:04.640 Will the people submit to our unauthorized acts? 230 00:20:04.640 --> 00:20:08.120 Will the states sanction our usurped power? 231 00:20:08.120 --> 00:20:10.800 Sir, they ought not to submit. 232 00:20:10.800 --> 00:20:16.120 They would deserve the chains which these measures are forging for them if they did 233 00:20:16.120 --> 00:20:19.360 not resist. 234 00:20:19.360 --> 00:20:22.440 Now where do these ideas come from? 235 00:20:22.440 --> 00:20:52.440 Jefferson just think them up one day, which would be fine, by the way. Jefferson's got a good mind. I'm sure you can think things up very quickly. But no, in fact, Jefferson is just simply developing ideas that go back to the state ratifying convention of Virginia and beyond even that. In 1788, Virginians were by and large skeptical of the new Constitution. And Patrick Henry, among others, said things like, look, this Constitution, look at this general welfare clause. What insane lunacy could you not pass by citing the general welfare clause, right? 236 00:20:52.440 --> 00:20:56.440 Every dictator thinks he's supporting the general welfare. This is ridiculous. 237 00:20:56.440 --> 00:21:03.440 And Patrick Henry was told by supporters of the Constitution, he was told, don't worry. 238 00:21:03.440 --> 00:21:07.440 This government is going to have only the powers that are expressly delegated to it. 239 00:21:07.440 --> 00:21:14.440 So they use the word expressly. So in other words, the idea of the 10th Amendment is already implicit in the Constitution as drafted. 240 00:21:14.440 --> 00:21:18.440 And moreover, George Nicholas, who became the first Attorney General of Kentucky, 241 00:21:18.440 --> 00:21:48.440 and who served on the five-man committee that was drafting Virginia's instrument of ratification, said that if this federal government attempts to impose upon us any supplementary condition beyond those we agreed to when we ratified the Constitution, that is, if it exercises a power that's not listed in Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution, then don't worry, Virginia will be exonerated from it. We just point to the statute and we'll be exonerated from it. So you can see there clearly is the germ of nullification right there. 242 00:21:48.440 --> 00:21:53.440 Even with that assurance, Virginia barely ratified the Constitution. Barely. 243 00:21:53.440 --> 00:21:59.440 But with that assurance in there, and then I trace out in the book, I show how in the ensuing years, 244 00:21:59.440 --> 00:22:05.440 the Virginia General Assembly is consistently reminding people of the promises that were made to them when they ratified the Constitution. 245 00:22:05.440 --> 00:22:09.440 That we are subject to this thing only this far and no farther. 246 00:22:09.440 --> 00:22:16.440 And so that when Jefferson introduces the Kentucky resolutions of 1798, this is not like a bolt of lightning out of nowhere. 247 00:22:16.440 --> 00:22:19.840 This is just building on an already existing line of thought people knew about already. 248 00:22:19.840 --> 00:22:22.960 This was very much in the mainstream of Virginian thinking. 249 00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:28.080 This is not crazy or whatever people say about it today. 250 00:22:28.080 --> 00:22:34.480 Now wasn't this all, though, just some kind of smoke screen behind which to defend slavery? 251 00:22:34.480 --> 00:22:35.480 You get that a lot. 252 00:22:35.480 --> 00:22:39.120 Anytime you talk about the states or political decentralization, immediately it is assumed 253 00:22:39.120 --> 00:22:43.840 that anyone who favors it must have some kind of sinister intentions, that you must be trying 254 00:22:43.840 --> 00:22:58.840 The Greatest Opponent of States Rights in the 20th Century was Hitler, and would also be Stalin, and so on and on. 255 00:22:58.840 --> 00:23:02.840 How do you think Stalin felt about the Soviet Republic's nullifying legislation? 256 00:23:02.840 --> 00:23:08.840 No, we prefer not to have people sent to the gulag, for example. That's not going to happen. 257 00:23:08.840 --> 00:23:14.800 So there's nothing in particular about the apportionment of powers between a central 258 00:23:14.800 --> 00:23:22.520 government and outlying regions that is necessarily pro or anti-liberty. I think on balance, liberty 259 00:23:22.520 --> 00:23:27.400 is more likely to be preserved in a system in which you have a multiplicity of jurisdictions 260 00:23:27.400 --> 00:23:32.280 than if you have one giant one. But it is possible that the one giant one could be ruled 261 00:23:32.280 --> 00:23:36.680 over by a saint who just always does the right thing. So in other words, we can't just look 262 00:23:36.680 --> 00:23:53.680 The Federal Government itself, which critics of these ideas love so deeply, the Federal 263 00:23:53.680 --> 00:23:59.460 Government itself threw Japanese Americans into internment camps, for goodness sake. 264 00:23:59.460 --> 00:24:04.400 Power can be used for wicked ends no matter where it is reposed. 265 00:24:04.400 --> 00:24:09.600 But the fact is that slavery was not in fact what nullification was used for. There is 266 00:24:09.600 --> 00:24:14.680 no case of nullification being used on behalf of slavery. In fact, the very idea of the 267 00:24:14.680 --> 00:24:19.480 strict construction of the Constitution, which is part and parcel of nullification 268 00:24:19.480 --> 00:24:24.800 and Jefferson's constitutional ideas, in fact does not by and large come from supporters 269 00:24:24.800 --> 00:24:30.700 of slavery. Eugene Genovese was the ex-Marxist Southern historian, one of the greatest Southern 270 00:24:30.700 --> 00:24:41.700 and historians of our time, said that of the five Virginians who made the greatest intellectual contributions to the strict constructionist interpretation of the Constitution, 271 00:24:41.700 --> 00:24:48.700 and he cites George Mason, Thomas Jefferson, John Randolph of Roanoke, St. George Tucker and John Taylor of Caroline, 272 00:24:48.700 --> 00:24:59.700 he said, well, really, you see only one pro-slavery figure in this. He says, if strict construction and state rights were merely or essentially a facade for the defense of slavery, 273 00:24:59.700 --> 00:25:03.700 We need to account for a disturbing and incontrovertible fact. 274 00:25:03.700 --> 00:25:11.700 Of the five, only Taylor was pro-slavery and even he regarded it as an inherited misfortune to be tolerated rather than celebrated. 275 00:25:11.700 --> 00:25:14.700 Mason and Randolph spoke out against slavery. 276 00:25:14.700 --> 00:25:19.700 Tucker wrote the first important plan for emancipation to come out of Virginia. 277 00:25:19.700 --> 00:25:27.700 And when the legislature ignored it, he appealed to the American people by including it as an appendix to his edition of Blackstone, 278 00:25:27.700 --> 00:25:30.820 which was widely read by those who aspired to the bar 279 00:25:30.820 --> 00:25:33.940 and indeed by a great many of those who, in the manner of the day, 280 00:25:33.940 --> 00:25:38.180 aspired to be proper gentlemen. In the minds of these five men 281 00:25:38.180 --> 00:25:41.540 and to a considerable extent in their political practice, strict construction 282 00:25:41.540 --> 00:25:45.420 and state rights had little to do with slavery. 283 00:25:45.420 --> 00:25:49.380 So what in fact was nullification used for? 284 00:25:49.380 --> 00:25:54.020 Well, as we've seen it was used on behalf of the cause of freedom of speech. 285 00:25:54.020 --> 00:25:57.580 It was also used by the New England states 286 00:25:57.580 --> 00:26:02.260 that resented the Jeffersonian embargo that was imposed in late 1807 and continued through 287 00:26:02.260 --> 00:26:07.140 early 1809, which they believed itself to be unconstitutional, but also unconstitutional 288 00:26:07.140 --> 00:26:12.880 in its enforcement, because they believed there were a great many unconstitutional searches 289 00:26:12.880 --> 00:26:17.340 and seizures taking place, and on that I don't think anybody really disputes that. 290 00:26:17.340 --> 00:26:18.340 So what did they do? 291 00:26:18.340 --> 00:26:21.860 Well, they did the best they could as states to say, well, we're not going to enforce this, 292 00:26:21.860 --> 00:26:24.540 we're not going to cooperate in it. 293 00:26:24.540 --> 00:26:29.580 When a federal collector at Oswego requested help in enforcing the embargo, the New York's 294 00:26:29.580 --> 00:26:34.420 governor refused to provide the help. The state courts of Rhode Island prevented the 295 00:26:34.420 --> 00:26:39.860 detention of vessels there. The Massachusetts legislature officially condemned the embargo 296 00:26:39.860 --> 00:26:44.860 as in many respects unjust, oppressive and unconstitutional and not legally binding on 297 00:26:44.860 --> 00:26:47.060 the citizens of this state. 298 00:26:47.060 --> 00:26:50.560 Now it doesn't matter what your political predilections are or what kind of libertarian 299 00:26:50.560 --> 00:26:57.560 The Governor of Connecticut said whenever our national legislature is led to overleap the prescribed bounds of their constitutional powers, on the state legislatures, in great emergencies, devolves the arduous task, it is their right, it becomes their duty, to interpose their protectors. 300 00:27:20.560 --> 00:27:25.120 protecting shield between the right and liberty of the people and the assumed power of the 301 00:27:25.120 --> 00:27:30.720 general government. Now interpose is from the language of 98, 1798. It's the language 302 00:27:30.720 --> 00:27:36.320 of the Virginia resolutions. Interposition, the positioning of a state between the federal 303 00:27:36.320 --> 00:27:41.840 government and its crummy law and the people of the state on the other hand. The Connecticut 304 00:27:41.840 --> 00:27:46.280 legislature was very happy with this statement of its governor and said this, resolve that 305 00:27:46.280 --> 00:27:50.440 to preserve the union and support the constitution of the United States, it becomes the duty 306 00:27:50.440 --> 00:27:55.240 of the Legislatures of the States in such a crisis of affairs, vigilantly to watch over 307 00:27:55.240 --> 00:27:59.720 and vigorously to maintain the powers not delegated to the United States but reserved 308 00:27:59.720 --> 00:28:03.080 to the states respectively or to the people, that of course is a reference to the Tenth 309 00:28:03.080 --> 00:28:07.680 Amendment, and that a due regard to this duty will not permit this assembly to assist or 310 00:28:07.680 --> 00:28:13.440 concur in giving effect to the aforesaid unconstitutional act passed to enforce the embargo. And then 311 00:28:13.440 --> 00:28:20.060 they go on and get more radical still as the resolutions continue. The Legislature of Rhode 312 00:28:20.060 --> 00:28:33.060 It was the duty of this General Assembly to interpose for the purpose of protecting the people of Rhode Island from the ruinous inflictions of usurped and unconstitutional power. 313 00:28:33.060 --> 00:28:36.060 And again, those resolutions make very interesting reading. 314 00:28:36.060 --> 00:28:49.060 Now, as it went on, as the war of 1812 proceeded, there was a still more stringent embargo enforced than Jefferson had imposed during his tenure. 315 00:28:49.060 --> 00:28:57.060 and once again we have resistance and states saying that this is unconstitutional, we're not going to assist in its execution. 316 00:28:57.060 --> 00:29:04.060 Now very interestingly, given that Daniel Webster is so often a villain in American history, at least in my reading, 317 00:29:04.060 --> 00:29:12.060 is to note what Daniel Webster had to say in late 1814 when it looked as if during the War of 1812 318 00:29:12.060 --> 00:29:15.060 that the Federal Government might attempt military conscription. 319 00:29:15.060 --> 00:29:19.900 and Conscription. Now Webster was at that time a member of the House of Representatives in 320 00:29:19.900 --> 00:29:24.460 New Hampshire. He later became a member of, in other words, the U.S. House representing 321 00:29:24.460 --> 00:29:28.260 the state of New Hampshire and then later he represented Massachusetts both in the U.S. 322 00:29:28.260 --> 00:29:35.260 House and in the Senate. So he gives a speech, one of his best speeches in which he denounces 323 00:29:36.340 --> 00:29:41.700 military conscription as being incompatible with both the Constitution and a free society 324 00:29:41.700 --> 00:29:50.860 And he said, where is it written in the Constitution, in what article or section is it contained 325 00:29:50.860 --> 00:29:55.180 that you may take children from their parents and parents from their children and compel 326 00:29:55.180 --> 00:29:59.740 them to fight the battles of any war in which the folly or the wickedness of government 327 00:29:59.740 --> 00:30:01.780 may engage in? 328 00:30:01.780 --> 00:30:05.800 There was a time when people used to talk like that in Washington, it's amazing. 329 00:30:05.800 --> 00:30:06.800 And so what should be done? 330 00:30:06.800 --> 00:30:09.220 What if the federal government should enact conscription? 331 00:30:09.220 --> 00:30:10.220 What should be done? 332 00:30:10.220 --> 00:30:27.740 If conscription should pass, it would be the solemn duty of the state governments to protect 333 00:30:27.740 --> 00:30:34.220 their own authority over their own militia and to interpose between their citizens and 334 00:30:34.220 --> 00:30:39.340 arbitrary power. These are among the objects for which the state governments exist and 335 00:30:39.340 --> 00:30:43.060 and their highest obligations bind them to the preservation of their own rights and the 336 00:30:43.060 --> 00:30:47.780 liberties of their people. I express these sentiments here because I shall express them 337 00:30:47.780 --> 00:30:55.500 to my constituents. Both they and myself live under a constitution which teaches us that, 338 00:30:55.500 --> 00:30:59.980 and now he quotes the New Hampshire Bill of Rights. The doctrine of non-resistance against 339 00:30:59.980 --> 00:31:05.860 arbitrary power and oppression is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness 340 00:31:05.860 --> 00:31:12.220 with the same earnestness with which I now exhort you to forbear from these measures, 341 00:31:12.220 --> 00:31:18.060 I shall exhort them to exercise their unquestionable right of providing for the security of their 342 00:31:18.060 --> 00:31:19.060 own liberties. 343 00:31:19.060 --> 00:31:24.420 Alright, now, there are a lot of speeches that kids have to slog through as they go 344 00:31:24.420 --> 00:31:25.420 through school. 345 00:31:25.420 --> 00:31:29.860 They've got to slog through a lot of inaugural addresses, you know, a whole lot of, you know, 346 00:31:29.860 --> 00:31:32.820 big puffery about nothing. 347 00:31:32.820 --> 00:31:34.940 But you know, who's reading that speech? 348 00:31:34.940 --> 00:31:39.940 Is that speech being singled out to anybody? I mean, no. It's like this speech never occurred. 349 00:31:39.940 --> 00:31:42.940 But it did occur. There it is. I'm reading it to you. 350 00:31:42.940 --> 00:31:45.940 But it's just gone. It's gone. I mean, I don't know why. 351 00:31:45.940 --> 00:31:49.940 I don't know why. We can develop some theories, but that speech is gone. 352 00:31:49.940 --> 00:31:53.940 The legislature of Connecticut warned that if military conscription were forthcoming, 353 00:31:53.940 --> 00:31:57.940 that they weren't going to go along with it. 354 00:31:57.940 --> 00:32:02.940 They said that the conscription bill was not only intolerably burdensome and oppressive, 355 00:32:02.940 --> 00:32:31.940 Well, they didn't get their conscription bill, but they did enact a bill for the enlistment 356 00:32:31.940 --> 00:32:37.340 of Minors, so we can now enlist children in the armed forces. 357 00:32:37.340 --> 00:32:43.980 Well, Connecticut and Massachusetts said, well, that just seems kind of creepy, particularly 358 00:32:43.980 --> 00:32:49.140 the possibility, given the way recruiters can sometimes be, that maybe these kids will 359 00:32:49.140 --> 00:32:53.100 give their consent, but they're not at the age of reason, or they may be at the age of 360 00:32:53.100 --> 00:32:56.220 reason, but they're not at the age where they could legitimately live on their own, 361 00:32:56.220 --> 00:33:01.620 let's say, and they could just scurry away with them without the consent of the parents. 362 00:33:01.620 --> 00:33:07.300 So the legislature of Connecticut passed an act to secure the rights of parents, masters 363 00:33:07.300 --> 00:33:13.160 and guardians. And it described the federal government's act as repugnant to the spirit 364 00:33:13.160 --> 00:33:17.680 of the Constitution of the United States and an unauthorized interference with the laws 365 00:33:17.680 --> 00:33:23.760 and rights of this state. And it required judges in that state to release on habeas corpus 366 00:33:23.760 --> 00:33:28.560 any minors who were enlisted without the consent of their parents and anyone who tried to remove 367 00:33:28.560 --> 00:33:58.520 In 1820, the Ohio Legislature declared, resolved by the General Assembly of the State of Ohio, 368 00:33:58.520 --> 00:34:02.060 But in respect to the powers of the governments of the several states which compose the American 369 00:34:02.060 --> 00:34:06.800 Union and the powers of the Federal Government, this General Assembly do recognize and approve 370 00:34:06.800 --> 00:34:11.220 the doctrines asserted by the legislatures of Virginia and Kentucky in their resolutions 371 00:34:11.220 --> 00:34:17.700 of November and December 1798 and January 1800, which is Madison's follow-up report, 372 00:34:17.700 --> 00:34:22.200 and do consider that their principles have been recognized and adopted by a majority 373 00:34:22.200 --> 00:34:24.780 of the American people. 374 00:34:24.780 --> 00:34:29.180 And they go on to say that one indication that the American people supported the principles 375 00:34:29.180 --> 00:34:35.340 of 98 was that in the year 1800, the party of the, we call these ideas decentralization 376 00:34:35.340 --> 00:34:38.460 and the power of nullification, we call them the principles of 98 after the resolutions 377 00:34:38.460 --> 00:34:44.340 of 1798, and the party that supported these principles, the Republicans won, not the Republicans 378 00:34:44.340 --> 00:34:49.060 of today, it's the different Republicans, won the election in 1800, Jefferson was elected. 379 00:34:49.060 --> 00:34:52.700 And so the Ohio legislature went on to say this is evidence that the people said you 380 00:34:52.700 --> 00:34:56.380 you can stick your federal supremacy where the sun don't shine. 381 00:34:56.380 --> 00:34:57.740 Sorry, that's a little crude. 382 00:34:59.700 --> 00:35:03.100 All right, now what are the things 383 00:35:03.100 --> 00:35:05.040 that northern states use this for? 384 00:35:05.040 --> 00:35:10.040 Well, of course, again, with regard to the fugitive slave laws, 385 00:35:10.220 --> 00:35:11.980 the northern states didn't like these. 386 00:35:11.980 --> 00:35:13.580 Now, the fugitive slave laws required you 387 00:35:13.580 --> 00:35:15.360 to return runaway slaves to their masters, 388 00:35:15.360 --> 00:35:16.980 and there is indeed a clause to this effect 389 00:35:16.980 --> 00:35:19.420 in the Constitution, but there were provisions 390 00:35:19.420 --> 00:35:22.060 of these laws, particularly the one in 1850, 391 00:35:22.060 --> 00:35:26.900 that were constitutionally dubious, and I go into the details of that in the book. 392 00:35:26.900 --> 00:35:30.020 And so a number of the northern states did everything they could to obstruct the enforcement 393 00:35:30.020 --> 00:35:31.140 of this law. 394 00:35:31.140 --> 00:35:36.620 And in particular, the state of Wisconsin, in effect, said, look, you know, if somebody 395 00:35:36.620 --> 00:35:40.900 is accused of being a fugitive slave, we're going to give that person a jury trial before 396 00:35:40.900 --> 00:35:42.860 sending him out of the state. 397 00:35:42.860 --> 00:35:47.340 It is not sufficient for some guy to come into our state and say, here's a physical 398 00:35:47.340 --> 00:35:49.540 description of the guy I'm looking for. 399 00:35:49.540 --> 00:35:51.180 Hey, that kind of looks like him. 400 00:35:51.180 --> 00:35:56.180 Well, you know, this system does seem rather liable to abuse, it seems. 401 00:35:56.180 --> 00:36:05.180 Instead, no, we want to gather all the evidence and until it is absolutely clear to everyone's satisfaction, no one is being taken out of this state. 402 00:36:05.180 --> 00:36:12.180 Now today, of course, again, nullification has been so toxified, the idea of political decentralization is so toxified, 403 00:36:12.180 --> 00:36:18.180 that it's hard for people to imagine that this could have been used on behalf of causes that we would consider noble. 404 00:36:18.180 --> 00:36:29.180 And even about a hundred years ago, I want to quote you from a speech a hundred years ago, even then, even the early 1900s, people are still, ah, nullification, terrible, terrible, terrible, wicked, evil. 405 00:36:29.180 --> 00:36:37.180 Yet I found an interesting speech delivered by a scholar named Robert Wilde in 1909. He's speaking to the Wisconsin Bar Association. 406 00:36:37.180 --> 00:36:42.180 And he's trying to tell them, I agree with you, nullification is stupid and wicked and unconstitutional and blah blah blah. 407 00:36:42.180 --> 00:37:03.180 There are gentlemen still in our own midst, some within the sound of my voice, who lived through and participated in that great humanitarian movement, and I stand in their presence with reverence upon my lips and affection in my heart. 408 00:37:03.180 --> 00:37:08.180 But I ask, speaking calmly from the standpoint of my unemotional text, 409 00:37:08.180 --> 00:37:15.180 Did their acts differ in principle from those of South Carolinians who also engaged in nullification, save only in degree? 410 00:37:15.180 --> 00:37:24.180 Were they not also purely and simply nullifiers, acting to be sure in the spirit of a broad and sweet humanity, but nullifiers nonetheless? 411 00:37:24.180 --> 00:37:36.180 Now, in Wisconsin we have the case of Joshua Glover, who in March 1854 was taken into custody by a Federal Marshal who was trying to enforce the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850 412 00:37:36.180 --> 00:37:41.560 Act of 1850, and said, look, this Glover is a runaway slave. Well, a local anti-slavery 413 00:37:41.560 --> 00:37:46.940 newspaper editor, Sherman Booth, frantically distributed handbills on the streets of Milwaukee 414 00:37:46.940 --> 00:37:51.340 to say to people, hey, hey, hey, these crumbs are coming into our state to try to take this 415 00:37:51.340 --> 00:37:55.780 Joshua Glover out, and Glover's never given anybody any problem, he's a perfectly upstanding 416 00:37:55.780 --> 00:38:00.180 citizen, hardworking guy, and now they're trying to take him out without a jury trial. 417 00:38:00.180 --> 00:38:04.220 All of us have to meet. We have to have a mass meeting because this man's liberty is 418 00:38:04.220 --> 00:38:05.220 is at stake. 419 00:38:05.220 --> 00:38:10.020 And so, when this mass meeting occurred, the great mob was addressed by Sherman Booth. 420 00:38:10.020 --> 00:38:16.700 He urged them that they must protect the great sacred right of habeas corpus and the right 421 00:38:16.700 --> 00:38:18.440 of trial by jury. 422 00:38:18.440 --> 00:38:23.660 And by the time he was done speaking, this mob had stormed the jail and liberated Joshua 423 00:38:23.660 --> 00:38:24.660 Glover. 424 00:38:24.660 --> 00:38:26.580 Well, of course, you're not allowed to do that. 425 00:38:26.580 --> 00:38:30.020 You're not allowed to give speeches that incite people to do these things. 426 00:38:30.020 --> 00:38:31.380 So Sherman Booth got in trouble. 427 00:38:31.380 --> 00:38:34.060 He was arrested and brought before a federal district court. 428 00:38:34.060 --> 00:38:38.540 He applied for a writ of habeas corpus, and a judge of the Wisconsin State Supreme Court 429 00:38:38.540 --> 00:38:40.380 ordered him released. 430 00:38:40.380 --> 00:38:44.500 And the State Supreme Court went on to say the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850 was unconstitutional 431 00:38:44.500 --> 00:38:46.500 and void. 432 00:38:46.500 --> 00:38:49.300 So Booth, not long afterward, was arrested again. 433 00:38:49.300 --> 00:38:51.340 Same federal marshal arrests him again. 434 00:38:51.340 --> 00:38:54.100 So this time he's found guilty of violating federal law. 435 00:38:54.100 --> 00:38:55.100 They throw him in prison. 436 00:38:55.100 --> 00:38:56.100 They fine him. 437 00:38:56.100 --> 00:39:00.100 Once again, by order of the State Supreme Court, he is released. 438 00:39:00.100 --> 00:39:04.500 The State Supreme Court was so uncooperative in submitting a record of the case to the 439 00:39:04.500 --> 00:39:09.900 U.S. Supreme Court that it wasn't until March of 1857, this is three years after the 440 00:39:09.900 --> 00:39:14.980 initial complaint, when finally the U.S. attorney was able to get a copy of the record. 441 00:39:14.980 --> 00:39:16.220 They finally got it. 442 00:39:16.220 --> 00:39:21.380 Finally December 1858, the U.S. Supreme Court said, all right, look, that is it. 443 00:39:21.380 --> 00:39:26.400 Booth has got to be turned over to federal custody and again State Supreme Court refused 444 00:39:26.400 --> 00:39:27.660 to comply. 445 00:39:27.660 --> 00:39:33.620 In 1859, the Wisconsin legislature heartily approves of what its state Supreme Court has 446 00:39:33.620 --> 00:39:40.540 been doing and adopts a resolution in support and says that the U.S. Supreme Court's action 447 00:39:40.540 --> 00:39:44.180 was without authority, void, and of no force. 448 00:39:44.180 --> 00:39:48.700 And here's its full statement, now if you've ever read the Kentucky resolutions of 1798 449 00:39:48.700 --> 00:39:55.260 and 1799, you'll notice this is drawn right from those documents word for word over sixty 450 00:39:55.260 --> 00:40:25.260 Resolve that the government formed by the Constitution of the United States was not the exclusive or final judge of the extent of the powers delegated to itself, but that as in all other cases of compact among parties having no common judge, each party has an equal right to judge for itself as well of infractions as of the mode and measure of redress. So that is to say, each state has the right to decide for itself when the Constitution has been violated and what kind of, what mode of redress we want. 451 00:40:25.260 --> 00:40:30.860 that we ought to pursue, and then it goes on and continues to quote from these resolutions, 452 00:40:30.860 --> 00:40:37.300 and it concludes that the states being sovereign and independent have the unquestionable right 453 00:40:37.300 --> 00:40:44.980 to judge of infractions and that a positive defiance of those sovereignties of all unauthorized 454 00:40:44.980 --> 00:40:51.860 acts done or attempted to be done under color of the Constitution is the rightful remedy. 455 00:40:51.860 --> 00:40:58.220 So what this boils down to is that if the people are determined to resist, you can have 456 00:40:58.220 --> 00:41:02.020 all the court decisions you want, all the federal government edicts, but if people just 457 00:41:02.020 --> 00:41:07.900 won't do it, well, then you have a chance to push back. You have a chance to fight back 458 00:41:07.900 --> 00:41:12.220 with the state government in effect acting as a shield for you, as a shield in a kind 459 00:41:12.220 --> 00:41:15.580 of act of civil disobedience. 460 00:41:15.580 --> 00:41:20.860 There is a story, a recent historian wrote a book called The Rescue of Joshua Glover 461 00:41:20.860 --> 00:41:26.780 in 2006. And this historian, Robert Baker, describes a situation this way. He says, 462 00:41:26.780 --> 00:41:34.540 The rescue of Joshua Glover had by 1860 become a national event. Wisconsin's steadfast resistance 463 00:41:34.540 --> 00:41:40.620 had morphed from a fugitive slave rescue to the interposition of the state with such intensity 464 00:41:40.620 --> 00:41:46.300 that all federal officers, from a deputy marshal to the chief justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, 465 00:41:46.300 --> 00:41:53.020 had been stung by the defiance. Most off-putting to them was its success. Despite immense pressure, 466 00:41:53.660 --> 00:41:58.540 the stand against the Fugitive Slave Act survived again and again at the polls. 467 00:42:01.580 --> 00:42:07.500 Now, some of you may have seen a little video that a couple friends and I put together sort 468 00:42:07.500 --> 00:42:14.940 of in promotion of the book. It's called Interview with a Zombie. Did anybody see that? 469 00:42:16.300 --> 00:42:32.300 Thanks. If you haven't seen that, I would ask as a personal favor, not that you owe me any favors, but if you ever need anything from me, you can just call me and I'll try and do my best, but I'm going to ask you for a favor right now. 470 00:42:32.300 --> 00:42:41.300 Go to interviewwithazombie.com, interviewwithazombie.com. And I made this video basically because I knew what was going to happen to me. 471 00:42:41.300 --> 00:42:48.620 You release a book like this and the response will be slavery, neoconfederate, Hitler, whatever 472 00:42:48.620 --> 00:42:50.900 things you can think of they're going to throw at you. 473 00:42:50.900 --> 00:42:54.980 So the premise of the video is that I'm being interviewed by an actual zombie. 474 00:42:54.980 --> 00:43:01.300 This is a member of the undead who has his own television talk show. 475 00:43:01.300 --> 00:43:03.500 I know, could you imagine a zombie having a talk show? 476 00:43:03.500 --> 00:43:06.580 Who ever heard of such a thing, right? 477 00:43:06.580 --> 00:43:11.100 But he interviews authors apparently and the show is called Interview with a Zombie. 478 00:43:11.100 --> 00:43:14.180 And then the show comes up, you know, welcome to Interview with the Zombie, and there, you 479 00:43:14.180 --> 00:43:15.960 know, we are chatting. 480 00:43:15.960 --> 00:43:21.940 And then we decided when we made this video, it's Bob Murphy, fellow Mises guy, and Bob 481 00:43:21.940 --> 00:43:25.020 and I decided that the zombie can say only one word at a time. 482 00:43:25.020 --> 00:43:26.020 That's how we're going to do it. 483 00:43:26.020 --> 00:43:27.300 He can say only one word at a time. 484 00:43:27.300 --> 00:43:29.020 So how does he start an interview? 485 00:43:29.020 --> 00:43:34.100 Well, all he can do is just hold up the book and say, book. 486 00:43:34.100 --> 00:43:37.660 So I kind of, you know, look around and start talking about the book and explaining it. 487 00:43:37.660 --> 00:43:41.340 And then after he hears my answer, I explain what nullification is, I give, you know, again, 488 00:43:41.340 --> 00:43:44.300 you don't have to agree with it, but at least, you know, it's not a ridiculous argument that 489 00:43:44.300 --> 00:43:45.300 I'm making. 490 00:43:45.300 --> 00:43:49.300 At that point, the zombie realizes, okay, I've invited some guy who's way out of the 491 00:43:49.300 --> 00:43:55.220 mainstream out of my program, so he immediately, so he says, neoconfederate, which is one of 492 00:43:55.220 --> 00:43:58.940 these buzzwords that the left uses when they have no argument, they say, well, we'll just 493 00:43:58.940 --> 00:44:02.360 utter this toxic sounding word and everybody will scamper away. 494 00:44:02.360 --> 00:44:05.140 So I've got the zombie doing it, because that really is what they're doing, it's like acting 495 00:44:05.140 --> 00:44:06.140 like a zombie. 496 00:44:06.140 --> 00:44:11.400 So I sort of, with a puzzled look, I say, well no, actually these principles were used 497 00:44:11.400 --> 00:44:15.260 more often by northern states than by southern, so I don't think you're, and then he introduces 498 00:44:15.260 --> 00:44:18.660 and interrupts and says, slavery. 499 00:44:18.660 --> 00:44:22.340 And again I say, no, actually no, nullification was never used on behalf of slavery, but it's 500 00:44:22.340 --> 00:44:24.420 interesting, you know what it was used on behalf of? 501 00:44:24.420 --> 00:44:26.980 And he pauses and says, slavery? 502 00:44:26.980 --> 00:44:30.420 Well no, I mean I just said, weren't you listening to me? 503 00:44:30.420 --> 00:44:33.820 So anyway, so this just goes on and on, and by the end he's just throwing out words, 504 00:44:33.820 --> 00:44:42.060 One word after another, and then the thing ends and off we go, but don't miss the very 505 00:44:42.060 --> 00:44:45.840 last few seconds because at the end it fades out and then it comes up with the book cover 506 00:44:45.840 --> 00:44:47.800 and my website and stuff. 507 00:44:47.800 --> 00:44:51.740 Don't just turn, wait until it goes all the way to the end because the media guy who did 508 00:44:51.740 --> 00:44:52.740 this for me is just brilliant. 509 00:44:52.740 --> 00:44:59.760 At the very last second, Bob's zombie head pops back onto the screen and he says, book, 510 00:44:59.760 --> 00:45:05.240 and then goes back down, I mean it's just, absolutely wonderful, just great, just great. 511 00:45:05.240 --> 00:45:11.200 But anyway, so I did that because it was sort of like a preemptive strike, as if to say, 512 00:45:11.200 --> 00:45:15.440 look, if you're going to come after me and attack me, you better be making an argument. 513 00:45:15.440 --> 00:45:20.080 I mean, you better not just be sitting here rattling off words, okay, that are going to 514 00:45:20.080 --> 00:45:21.080 sound scary to people. 515 00:45:21.080 --> 00:45:22.880 Like, make an argument. 516 00:45:22.880 --> 00:45:28.680 This is a serious point and I do not see, when we look at California considering decriminalizing 517 00:45:28.680 --> 00:45:33.120 and Marijuana, not just medical marijuana, but across the board, that is a direct defiance 518 00:45:33.120 --> 00:45:41.880 of the federal government. I don't see how it's helpful to use the word neoconfederate. 519 00:45:41.880 --> 00:45:46.640 I mean, what in heaven's name does decriminalizing marijuana have to do with the Confederate 520 00:45:46.640 --> 00:45:49.960 states of America? I mean, I would love to know what in the world the connection is or 521 00:45:49.960 --> 00:45:54.200 what this has to do with racism or whatever. I mean, we've got to have real discussions, 522 00:45:54.200 --> 00:45:58.200 and Real Substantive Arguments with Each Other. 523 00:45:58.200 --> 00:46:01.200 Now, a lot of times I've been getting this response. 524 00:46:01.200 --> 00:46:04.200 Well, gee, I mean, if you have nullification, then, you know, 525 00:46:04.200 --> 00:46:08.200 this could be chaotic, because we could have some states nullifying some things 526 00:46:08.200 --> 00:46:10.200 and other states nullifying other things. 527 00:46:10.200 --> 00:46:14.200 And so some states would have one policy and other states would have another policy. 528 00:46:14.200 --> 00:46:18.200 And people are posing this like this is the worst outcome imaginable. 529 00:46:18.200 --> 00:46:22.200 Like, whoa, whoa, whoa, go hide under the bed from this scenario. 530 00:46:22.200 --> 00:46:29.200 Do you realize that the nightmare scenario they're describing is the United States as the framers established it? 531 00:46:29.200 --> 00:46:33.200 That's what it's supposed to look like. Precisely that. 532 00:46:38.200 --> 00:46:44.200 Where, yes, Vermont is different from Kansas, which is different from Oregon, which is different from Florida. 533 00:46:44.200 --> 00:46:50.200 That's great. That's wonderful. You can find some place where you fit in, where you can live in peace. 534 00:46:50.200 --> 00:46:55.400 and Peace. Wonderful. There's nothing wrong with that. But that's exactly what the United 535 00:46:55.400 --> 00:46:59.640 States is supposed to be, is a bunch of self-governing communities. Some of them are going to do 536 00:46:59.640 --> 00:47:03.400 stupid things, but at least you have the chance to leave. You can vote with your feet and 537 00:47:03.400 --> 00:47:09.120 go somewhere else if they do that. Now, again, of course it's true that decentralization 538 00:47:09.120 --> 00:47:14.200 is in and of itself no guarantee of liberty, because little governments are still governments. 539 00:47:14.200 --> 00:47:20.160 Again, they still may well be full of sociopaths who don't understand economics or social 540 00:47:20.160 --> 00:47:33.160 Social Peace and they just want to loot you. That's definitely true. But again, at least you have some recourse and at least the various authorities have to compete for a tax base. 541 00:47:33.160 --> 00:47:35.480 If they oppress you too much, you'll leave. 542 00:47:35.480 --> 00:47:39.120 This was how liberty came to Western Europe 543 00:47:39.120 --> 00:47:42.120 in the high middle ages and beyond, 544 00:47:42.120 --> 00:47:45.480 was that you had so many tiny little political units 545 00:47:45.480 --> 00:47:47.040 that if any one of them became too oppressive, 546 00:47:47.040 --> 00:47:48.400 you'd just go five feet, 547 00:47:48.400 --> 00:47:49.760 and then you're subject to a different one. 548 00:47:49.760 --> 00:47:52.120 So they've got to keep things, 549 00:47:52.120 --> 00:47:53.800 they've got to keep regulation, taxation, 550 00:47:53.800 --> 00:47:55.120 all that stuff down. 551 00:47:55.120 --> 00:47:57.480 That's why scholars who study this period say 552 00:47:57.480 --> 00:48:00.640 that capitalism came into effect in Western Europe 553 00:48:00.640 --> 00:48:06.640 Thanks, by and large, to political anarchy. This is nothing to fear. It's something to celebrate. This is the root of our whole civilization. 554 00:48:06.640 --> 00:48:16.640 Now, also today, I mean, think about today. Realistically today, right now, you know, a lot of bad things happened in Birmingham, 1963. 555 00:48:16.640 --> 00:48:25.640 Nobody's denying that, okay? No reasonable person's denying that. What I'm talking about is right now, today, 2010, when everybody has the right to vote. 556 00:48:25.640 --> 00:48:36.640 So it's much harder to pick on one particular minority. In 2010, are you really going to tell me that the big threat to our liberties is coming from Boise, Idaho? I mean, come on now. Let's be realistic. 557 00:48:36.640 --> 00:48:53.640 You know, the war on drugs, we all know the effects this has had on minority neighborhoods. This is a federal policy. Wouldn't it be great to see a city or a state say, you know what, you may have your crazy war on drugs, but we're not going to devote any resources to it. How about that? 558 00:48:53.640 --> 00:48:57.640 What are they going to do? How many DEA agents do they have? What are they going to do? 559 00:48:57.640 --> 00:49:02.640 I mean, be creative, think, instead of sitting back and saying, well, if we get enough people in office who, 560 00:49:02.640 --> 00:49:06.640 yeah, yeah, yeah, and in the year 2710, we'll still have the drug war. 561 00:49:06.640 --> 00:49:10.640 You know, some of us are a little more impatient than that. Let's try some experiments. 562 00:49:10.640 --> 00:49:14.640 Who knows what we can get away with? The federal government has been busy getting away with stuff for over a hundred years. 563 00:49:14.640 --> 00:49:17.640 Why don't we get away with something once in a while? 564 00:49:17.640 --> 00:49:28.280 I decided to write this thing because five years ago without any central direction, without 565 00:49:28.280 --> 00:49:32.560 anybody specifically or explicitly calling for it, we had a couple of dozen states that 566 00:49:32.560 --> 00:49:38.320 in effect said we're not going to comply with this Real ID Act that involved the standardization 567 00:49:38.320 --> 00:49:41.440 and centralization of identification procedures. 568 00:49:41.440 --> 00:49:45.400 And so in effect the federal government had to retreat and they're trying to do it a different 569 00:49:45.400 --> 00:49:52.400 The 9th Circuit even said, there is no right in the Constitution to be preserved from excruciating 570 00:50:15.400 --> 00:50:20.600 pain and suffering. If in order to be preserved from it, you need to use medical marijuana. 571 00:50:20.600 --> 00:50:26.760 Well, that's super humane. That's just super. And yet, the Supreme Court's against it, the 572 00:50:26.760 --> 00:50:30.520 Justice Department's against it, and they're still doing it anyway. There are a thousand 573 00:50:30.520 --> 00:50:34.240 medical marijuana dispensaries operating in L.A. County alone. They're still doing 574 00:50:34.240 --> 00:50:38.120 it anyway. And so now, you give that example, though, and people will say, well, that's 575 00:50:38.120 --> 00:50:42.400 not a good example. The Justice Department has decided to stop prosecuting these cases. 576 00:50:42.400 --> 00:50:47.520 Yes, I know. Why? Do you think they just woke up one day and said, you know, we're interpreting 577 00:50:47.520 --> 00:50:52.320 the commerce clause too broadly. We better leave this alone. I said, people weren't 578 00:50:52.320 --> 00:50:56.240 going to do it. So they basically said, well then forget about it. Well then, you know, 579 00:50:56.240 --> 00:51:02.020 who knows to the extent to which this can be used. But that's certainly a beginning. 580 00:51:02.020 --> 00:51:07.480 These examples are certainly a beginning. They're not nothing. And now we see states 581 00:51:07.480 --> 00:51:13.540 States that are drafting nullification resolutions and legislation regarding cap and trade and 582 00:51:13.540 --> 00:51:15.840 many other things. 583 00:51:15.840 --> 00:51:21.500 So I've got, I have a site, statenullification.com, where I've got some links where you can click 584 00:51:21.500 --> 00:51:26.000 on them and see where and what states are they trying what, and where is this going 585 00:51:26.000 --> 00:51:27.000 on. 586 00:51:27.000 --> 00:51:30.600 Statenullification.com will redirect to my page on this. 587 00:51:30.600 --> 00:51:35.360 So who knows where it can go, but as I say, it's being picked up, there was even an article 588 00:51:35.360 --> 00:51:39.920 in the New York Times about how social liberals in Massachusetts are thinking that maybe they 589 00:51:39.920 --> 00:51:43.720 can use the 10th Amendment. Well, I say the more the merrier. You know, regardless of whether 590 00:51:43.720 --> 00:51:47.760 I agree with him or not, the level at which we should be arguing these things is the lowest 591 00:51:47.760 --> 00:51:52.320 one possible. So the more the merrier. Let's all come on board. I once asked a left-wing 592 00:51:52.320 --> 00:51:57.080 critic, would you have supported the use of state nullification against the roundup of 593 00:51:57.080 --> 00:52:03.080 the Japanese in America during World War II? Because this person is totally against nullifications, 594 00:52:03.080 --> 00:52:19.080 The Equal Protection Clause, as applied in Yick Wo in 1866, would have worked just as well. 595 00:52:19.080 --> 00:52:26.080 I see. So in other words, the goons are whizzing by you while you're holding up your court precedent in the air, 596 00:52:26.080 --> 00:52:32.080 And that works just as well as the state government saying to the federal government, 597 00:52:32.080 --> 00:52:36.080 you can go stick your round up right in your... well, you know where, right? 598 00:52:36.080 --> 00:52:40.080 You're telling me that just standing here, well, hey, look, I can find a good legal argument against it. 599 00:52:40.080 --> 00:52:44.080 Yeah, we all could. I could have a million legal arguments. I could stand there handing them out. 600 00:52:44.080 --> 00:52:47.080 But as soon as the goons drive by me, it doesn't matter. 601 00:52:47.080 --> 00:52:52.080 But that's how utterly allergic they are to the idea of decentralization. 602 00:52:52.080 --> 00:52:55.080 All they can think of is, well, maybe the Supreme Court could have done X, Y or Z. 603 00:52:55.080 --> 00:53:00.080 The Supreme Court upheld that awful thing. So what else can you do? What do you just 604 00:53:00.080 --> 00:53:03.320 sit there, whoa, we'll vote for the... I mean, this is just ridiculous. I mean, enough's 605 00:53:03.320 --> 00:53:08.960 enough. How long can this go on? So it seems like if we want to accomplish something, we've 606 00:53:08.960 --> 00:53:14.320 got to be willing to do things that are unconventional. Peaceful, but unconventional. But yet, hallowed 607 00:53:14.320 --> 00:53:19.840 by tradition and hallowed by a lineage that includes Thomas Jefferson and other distinguished 608 00:53:19.840 --> 00:53:26.280 It's not enough to hold aloft your policy study or your legal brief. As with the Japanese 609 00:53:26.280 --> 00:53:32.520 internment, the time comes when you must simply say, no, we're not doing it. We need governors 610 00:53:32.520 --> 00:53:37.960 and state legislatures who simply say, we're not doing it anymore. And at a time of economic 611 00:53:37.960 --> 00:53:44.160 turmoil, when the states are in desperate straits as well, it is not unthinkable that we could 612 00:53:44.160 --> 00:53:47.720 reach a point at which a governor simply says, you know, starting tomorrow, I'm going to 613 00:53:47.720 --> 00:53:52.720 I'm going to go through the state budget line by line, and every unfunded mandate we're paying for is just out. 614 00:53:52.720 --> 00:53:57.720 We can't do it anymore. What are you going to do? Send the tanks in? What are you going to do? 615 00:53:57.720 --> 00:54:04.720 Okay. I'm over the time. I'm bringing this to a close in just a minute. 616 00:54:04.720 --> 00:54:15.720 Ron Paul and I had a really unusual opportunity last month to speak at the dinner on the eve of the Iowa GOP State Convention. 617 00:54:15.720 --> 00:54:20.320 I wasn't really expecting that invitation, but I got it, and it's partly because four 618 00:54:20.320 --> 00:54:25.520 people on the central committee of the party, and I know you say central committee of the 619 00:54:25.520 --> 00:54:29.480 party, you think Pollock Bureau or Soviet Union, but no, no, no, but the central committee 620 00:54:29.480 --> 00:54:33.440 of the Iowa party are Ron Paul people, they were just elected, and so they said, well, 621 00:54:33.440 --> 00:54:35.400 these are our dinner speakers. 622 00:54:35.400 --> 00:54:41.100 So I went and I try to be courteous, I'm not just going to get up there and give a belligerent 623 00:54:41.100 --> 00:54:47.700 Speech and Accomplish Nothing, but nevertheless by the end of the speech I was very forthrightly 624 00:54:47.700 --> 00:54:52.980 calling for exactly this and we sold out all the copies of Nullification and I got one 625 00:54:52.980 --> 00:54:58.500 of the most enthusiastic cheering standing ovations I've ever received. 626 00:54:58.500 --> 00:55:03.980 And these party people are very middle of the road, moderate, don't rock the boat, 627 00:55:03.980 --> 00:55:05.340 be very conventional. 628 00:55:05.340 --> 00:55:09.780 So it shocked me that I could give a speech like that and get that type of response. 629 00:55:09.780 --> 00:55:14.060 It reminded me of the Michael Bolden speech, that when people hear this, they think, well, 630 00:55:14.060 --> 00:55:18.420 makes sense to me. Obviously everything else has failed, and Thomas Jefferson was in fact 631 00:55:18.420 --> 00:55:23.380 not an idiot, so it is worth trying. Now we've, all this time that the federal government 632 00:55:23.380 --> 00:55:26.860 just gets bigger and bigger and bigger, you know, we've had our conferences, we've done 633 00:55:26.860 --> 00:55:30.300 all these, and I love conferences, we need this, we have to educate the public. But if 634 00:55:30.300 --> 00:55:34.500 that's our only strategy, well, you know, maybe we could at least try this too and see 635 00:55:34.500 --> 00:55:36.940 if we have success with it. 636 00:55:36.940 --> 00:55:42.540 Again, it needs to be said that it's over, we're not doing it anymore. 637 00:55:42.540 --> 00:55:44.580 There are a lot of counter-arguments you can make against nullification. 638 00:55:44.580 --> 00:55:46.340 I understand I haven't addressed them all today. 639 00:55:46.340 --> 00:55:49.560 I try to address as many of them as I can in the book. 640 00:55:49.560 --> 00:55:55.400 But I am convinced that at the very least there is great promise for this approach. 641 00:55:55.400 --> 00:56:00.380 And finally, it is my opinion that we have to start doing it yesterday. 642 00:56:00.380 --> 00:56:01.380 Thank you very much.